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Buck-O
Coastermaker
ciento44 said:
*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*
No, actually you cant say 1993 Celica GT and 700 BHP and AWD in teh same sentence.
1: I happen to be a hudge Celica enthousiast.
2: I happen to be a HUDGE World Rally fan, and can quote tech specs untill the cows come home.
3: I will now pwn you.
The Celica ST, base 1.6L engine, FWD, general comuter car.
The Celica GT, same chassis as the ST, with a bigger engine, the 5S-GE displacing 2.2L
The Celica GT-S, had the same 2.2L 5S-GTE with the wide body fender flairs of the GT4/All-Trac model. And had revised suspension, with bigger anti-role bars, and some other more upscale interior options.
The Celica All-Trac (ST-185), had the 2.0L Turbo charged 3S-GTE, and came with AWD, and a slew of upper scale interior options.
There was also an "R" version of the Celica that never made it into the US, dubbed the ST-182 chassis, that had a 3S-GE, and all wheel steering. And the came wide fender flairs as the GT-S and All-Trac.
There was also a model avliable in Euroe and Japan that was the GT4 Narrow, which was a GT4 chassis with the narrow fenders of the base GT/ST models.
Now, that we have discussed the basic versions of the 5th gen celica...let me tell you why what you propose is impossible.
Essentially what you claim to be attempting to do, is turn a base model GT into a GT4. This CAN NOT be done. Unless you happen to own the machinary at Toyotas factory, and can restamp the entire unibody.
You see the base GT/ST, is specificly designed to be a FWD car. And the chassis unibody bottom pan is designed for this purpose only.
I guess the best way to describe it is why you cant put GT4 running gear into a 5th gen celica.
The biggest issue is the AWD setup. For starters you need to have a full tunnel that runs to the back of the car, with mounting points for the rear diff housing, and the extra room for the rear drive shafts, and revised multilink rear suspension to mount up. The base model ST/GT chassis DO NOT have this floor pan. The GT4's trunk deck sits a whopping 8 inchies higher then the standared ST/GT trunk. Thats becuase the trailing arm rear McPherson strut doesnt require the same room as the multilink on the GT4, and there is no drive shafts or differential housings to deal with. So the floor is level with teh centerline of the rear wheel, rather then being well above it in the GT4.
Seconedly the AWD transmission requires more room behind the firewall for the center differential to fit. The ST/GT chassis does not have this relief in the firewall. Also to help support the weight of the transmission, and the added torque, there is a lateral support brace for the transmission, these mounting points do not exsist on the ST/GT chassis, and there is no flush mount point to drill into to make it work. And without it, the transmission will flop around and bang all over the chassis (i know this from having ridden in a 6th gen GT4 without this brace in, becuase we where doing some engine work).
So those are the two biggest things.
But, all hope is not list in your quest. There is still an option. Heres what you CAN do.
The first and seconed generation 3S-GTE engines are rather abundant here inthe US. Especially the 2nd gen, as it was in the ST-185 Celica All-Trac, and the SW20 MR2 Turbo. So parts are avliable, and can be had relatively cheap. The first gen (fromt eh ST-165 Celica All-Trac) has some intake issues with starving cylinders becuase of the manifold design, and the bottom end is not as robust as it could be. Plus it has the base single entry CT-27 turbo which is preaty inefficient.
THe engine you want, is a seconed gen...and you want it out of an MR2...with the transmission, ECU, and if you can, get a tranny with the stock Toyota LSD.
The reason why you need a tranny, is becuase the stock tranny on the 5S-GE is meant for the 5S-GE...if you put a 3S-GTE on that tranny, the increased torque would sheer gears. So you gotta replace it.
So now youve got your 2nd Gen 3S-GTE from an MR2 with a tranny that you know wil hold the power.
Basicly the MR2's drive layout is identicle to a FWD car, with the exception that its placed in the rear of the car, instead of in teh front. So the transmission is essentially a FWD transmission with the linkage kit facing forward, instead of backwards. And that can be EASILY fixed by swapping out the linkage with the 5S-GE tranny. Fits with little modification. And works perfectly.
Now its jsut a matter of putting it all into your GT.
So now youve got a FWD GT, with the 3S-GTE out of an MR2. And if you shopped wisely, you also got the tranny with an LSD, which will GREATLY improve handling.
The only downside...its not AWD, and the Toyota emblems on teh engine are facing the wrong way (remember it was int eh back of the car before).
Then you can have fun. Really, for the GT, the stock engine managment, and power from the 3S-GTE is perfect for it. Anything over 230 BHP in a front wheel drive car, and you are kidding yourself. It would be undrivable in anything but a straight line. Maybe thats what you like? But it wouldent be drivable on teh street.
So, to sumerise...
Unless you have a GT4 chassis to begin with, you CAN NOT make a GT into a GT4. You can however put in an MR2 Turbo engine and tranny with a little fanagling. And that will get you part way there.
And then if you really want to go all out, you can search around for some GT4 body bits. Like a GT4 RC hood, and front bumper. SO you can at least look like a GT4.
Hate to burst your bubble...but it simple cant be done without SERIOUSLY modifying the car. And by serious i mean completely stripping the car down to a bare skin and doing body over tube frame, and making a full blown race car. And 700 BHP?! The 3S-GTE is going to be preaty close to its limits at 500, and thats with some hefty mods. Anything more then that, and your talking SERIOUS modification again, which wouldent make it a 3S-GTE by the time you got done.
And really, becuase they ST-182 was shipped to the US...its best just to buy one of those if you really want that kind of performance. They can be picked up in good shape for well under $5000. And you would be alot less of a poser in a stock All-Trac, then you would in a GT with a 3S-GTE swap. Its kinda like putting a supercharger on a V6 Camaro to make it as fast as a Camaro SS.
So there you have it....PWN3D!
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Blumen
Coastermaker
And i will now reply.
I never said that it would be easy. If i wanted it to be easy, i would sell my GT and start with an All Trac, or even better, a GT4. Unfortunately, good examples are far and few between, especially in my area.
I'm not even going to argue that the GT was meant for awd in the beginning, because it wasn't. Mine is the coupe layout, and there's several subtle differences, there, too.
5th gen GT-S had the same engine as the GT, however, not the 5sgte that you claim. Normal old, geared for economy, 5sfe. Even making the same power. There were no power differences between the 5th gen GT and GT-S. It was, as you said, exterior, suspension, and interior options, such as System 10. GT-S came with 15-inch rims, the GT came with 14-inch rims, with 15s as an option.
5th gen GT didn't come in 5sge engine, either. The "g" badged engines revved higher, and were geared for performance. The only 5th gen celica that had a g-badged engine that made it to the US was the All Trac.
The GT4 narrow that you mention is more popular with drag racers in Europe, because it's inherently lighter.
The second-gen 3sgte is the engine of my choice anyway, to go with, because it has the highest level of aftermarket support, and much will be needed to get to my goals. However, there have been many documented instances of these engines reaching 700, even 800+ HP. There is a company that deals mostly in supras that will sell you a 700HP 3sgte for $23k.
Swapping the front clip from the MR2 turbo will work quite well, but it's both cheaper and easier to use the JDM All trac engine instead, with the main problem being the wiring, because it's on the wrong side in the JDM configuration.
When one would buy this engine, it almost always comes with engine, tranny, and ecu, so none of that will be an issue.
What is actually more common, at least on the east coast, where i am, is to put the LSD from the V6 camry in the car, rather than dealing with the MR2-celica swap issues.
Basically, in a nutshell, yeah, i could just wait and buy an AllTrac, but where's the fun in that? I could leave it at the stock 225HP, but where's the fun in that? I put on the intake, headers, and custom 3" piping on the thing, and i'm already at around 245hp peak power, so the 230hp limit that you posed will be shot even when the initial swap is done. Plus, the stock CT26 turbo will be upgraded fairly soon after the swap is done as well, along with a front mount intercooler. I never said i wanted anything looking like an All Trac. I'm already screwed on that, because i have the coupe version of the GT. I could buy the hood that comes with it, and the RC bumper... but that didn't come stock on the GT4 anyway.
Seriously modding the car is what i want to have done. So, thanks for the heads up, but in all honesty, the only thing that you said that i haven't already found out was that the Celica "R" had the 3sge... hadn't ever done research on it.
There's no 6th gen GT4 though.... The AllTracs and GT4s are widely considered separate models.
ST165 = 1st gen
ST185 = 2nd gen
ST205 = 3rd gen.
Already own a Kaaz limited slip diff, anyway.
Thanks for the argument though. It was refreshing that someone else knows stuff about these things on a computer board.
R3PLI3D!!
I never said that it would be easy. If i wanted it to be easy, i would sell my GT and start with an All Trac, or even better, a GT4. Unfortunately, good examples are far and few between, especially in my area.
I'm not even going to argue that the GT was meant for awd in the beginning, because it wasn't. Mine is the coupe layout, and there's several subtle differences, there, too.
5th gen GT-S had the same engine as the GT, however, not the 5sgte that you claim. Normal old, geared for economy, 5sfe. Even making the same power. There were no power differences between the 5th gen GT and GT-S. It was, as you said, exterior, suspension, and interior options, such as System 10. GT-S came with 15-inch rims, the GT came with 14-inch rims, with 15s as an option.
5th gen GT didn't come in 5sge engine, either. The "g" badged engines revved higher, and were geared for performance. The only 5th gen celica that had a g-badged engine that made it to the US was the All Trac.
The GT4 narrow that you mention is more popular with drag racers in Europe, because it's inherently lighter.
The second-gen 3sgte is the engine of my choice anyway, to go with, because it has the highest level of aftermarket support, and much will be needed to get to my goals. However, there have been many documented instances of these engines reaching 700, even 800+ HP. There is a company that deals mostly in supras that will sell you a 700HP 3sgte for $23k.
Swapping the front clip from the MR2 turbo will work quite well, but it's both cheaper and easier to use the JDM All trac engine instead, with the main problem being the wiring, because it's on the wrong side in the JDM configuration.
When one would buy this engine, it almost always comes with engine, tranny, and ecu, so none of that will be an issue.
What is actually more common, at least on the east coast, where i am, is to put the LSD from the V6 camry in the car, rather than dealing with the MR2-celica swap issues.
Basically, in a nutshell, yeah, i could just wait and buy an AllTrac, but where's the fun in that? I could leave it at the stock 225HP, but where's the fun in that? I put on the intake, headers, and custom 3" piping on the thing, and i'm already at around 245hp peak power, so the 230hp limit that you posed will be shot even when the initial swap is done. Plus, the stock CT26 turbo will be upgraded fairly soon after the swap is done as well, along with a front mount intercooler. I never said i wanted anything looking like an All Trac. I'm already screwed on that, because i have the coupe version of the GT. I could buy the hood that comes with it, and the RC bumper... but that didn't come stock on the GT4 anyway.
Seriously modding the car is what i want to have done. So, thanks for the heads up, but in all honesty, the only thing that you said that i haven't already found out was that the Celica "R" had the 3sge... hadn't ever done research on it.
There's no 6th gen GT4 though.... The AllTracs and GT4s are widely considered separate models.
ST165 = 1st gen
ST185 = 2nd gen
ST205 = 3rd gen.
Already own a Kaaz limited slip diff, anyway.
Thanks for the argument though. It was refreshing that someone else knows stuff about these things on a computer board.
R3PLI3D!!
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Buck-O
Coastermaker
Oh jesus....this is gonna get good.
I will give you i misquoted the engine. Your absolutely right, it is a 5S-FE. My bad.
And i too have herd of swapping the Camry Solara V6 tanny with the All-Trac/GT4 3S-GTE. But i still argue that going with a direct fit in with the MR2 running gear with a factory LSD makes the process of getting good performance much easier, and more affordable.
The 3S-GTE you speak of pumping out 700 BHP...is COMPLETELY rebuilt. The only stock Toyota part left on that engine is the block. And even it has had the journals reground, and had larger main bearings and main caps put in it. As well as being resleaved, having the deck milled, and a closed deck plate added. The head, is a custom machine piece, and the cams are custom suited for application. It is hardly what i would consider a 3S-GTE. That like pulling the engine out of a NASCAR winston/nextel cup car and saying "yup, thats a small block chevy". And to that end, you couldent street that engine, and you would be hard pressed to afford one. Thats as rediculas as saying "im gonna make my supra have 1000 BHP". Just becuase Blitz can do it, doesnt mean you can. Even the Toyota Supra JGTC cars which used the 3S-GTE's (up untill they switched to the V8 in 2005) contained almsot no factory spec parts. Including the block. Which is the same style of block that was use int he Group-A Toyota Celica ST-185 and ST-205 World Rally cars.
This however, is where i have to own you the most.
And perhaps we are just misunderstanding each other on this first issue.
TECHNICLY the ST-205 is the 3rd generation of the All-Trac/GT4. Howevert the ST-20* celica is the 6th generation of the Celica. Which i refer to as a 6G GT4. Rather then a third gen. If i refer to these models as a 3rd gen...it it because they use the 3rd generation 3S-GTE in them. Not becuase its the 3rd installment of the All-Trac/GT4.
As for the All-Trac and GT4 being "widely considered seperate models". Ive never heard that at all. Essentially they are the EXACT SAME CAR. THe term GT4 was what the car was branded in Japen and Europe. GT for the base model, GT-S for the sport model. And GT-4 for the AWD model. If you look closely at the Japanese or European GT4s, Directly underneath the Celica badge it says "All-Trac". Which was the trademarked name that Toyota used for their AWD system. WHich was also on the Previa Minivan, the Corolla Wagon, and various other models in Europe and Japan. So essentilly, becuase of the "stupid american" syndrome, they dropped the GT-4 moniker so that there would not be confusion among buyers with 3 differnt models all tagged "GT*". Plus i also believe there was a licencing issue with the GT4 name in the US. But the fact remains, you go anywhere in teh world other then the US, and they will all be GT4s with All-Trac, not a Celica All-Trac like here in the US. The only real differnce is the ECU's and the trim levels, the RC and Carlos Sainz where essentially stock GT4s with different body cladding representing the world Rally car. And the Group-A homologation models where lighter weight and had a bit more agressive tuning, and freer flowing intake and exaust stock from the factory. But they are the same car. And there is plent of information to back that up out on www.alltrac.net
At anyrate...the simple fact remains, the AWD linkage from a GT4 WIL NOT fit into the GT's unibody. Without fully disassembling the rear of the car, and essentually tubbing out the rear end and loading it on a tube fram. Which would be heavy, and an engineering nightmare. I will see if i can get some under chassis pictures of my friends ST-162 GT-S, and some under chassis shots of his track only ST-165 so you can see the incredible difference in the size of the chassis belly pans. There is no way it will fit. Period. Again, consult alltrac.net
But if you have some secret design, id love to knwo what it is.
I will give you i misquoted the engine. Your absolutely right, it is a 5S-FE. My bad.
And i too have herd of swapping the Camry Solara V6 tanny with the All-Trac/GT4 3S-GTE. But i still argue that going with a direct fit in with the MR2 running gear with a factory LSD makes the process of getting good performance much easier, and more affordable.
The 3S-GTE you speak of pumping out 700 BHP...is COMPLETELY rebuilt. The only stock Toyota part left on that engine is the block. And even it has had the journals reground, and had larger main bearings and main caps put in it. As well as being resleaved, having the deck milled, and a closed deck plate added. The head, is a custom machine piece, and the cams are custom suited for application. It is hardly what i would consider a 3S-GTE. That like pulling the engine out of a NASCAR winston/nextel cup car and saying "yup, thats a small block chevy". And to that end, you couldent street that engine, and you would be hard pressed to afford one. Thats as rediculas as saying "im gonna make my supra have 1000 BHP". Just becuase Blitz can do it, doesnt mean you can. Even the Toyota Supra JGTC cars which used the 3S-GTE's (up untill they switched to the V8 in 2005) contained almsot no factory spec parts. Including the block. Which is the same style of block that was use int he Group-A Toyota Celica ST-185 and ST-205 World Rally cars.
This however, is where i have to own you the most.
And perhaps we are just misunderstanding each other on this first issue.
TECHNICLY the ST-205 is the 3rd generation of the All-Trac/GT4. Howevert the ST-20* celica is the 6th generation of the Celica. Which i refer to as a 6G GT4. Rather then a third gen. If i refer to these models as a 3rd gen...it it because they use the 3rd generation 3S-GTE in them. Not becuase its the 3rd installment of the All-Trac/GT4.
As for the All-Trac and GT4 being "widely considered seperate models". Ive never heard that at all. Essentially they are the EXACT SAME CAR. THe term GT4 was what the car was branded in Japen and Europe. GT for the base model, GT-S for the sport model. And GT-4 for the AWD model. If you look closely at the Japanese or European GT4s, Directly underneath the Celica badge it says "All-Trac". Which was the trademarked name that Toyota used for their AWD system. WHich was also on the Previa Minivan, the Corolla Wagon, and various other models in Europe and Japan. So essentilly, becuase of the "stupid american" syndrome, they dropped the GT-4 moniker so that there would not be confusion among buyers with 3 differnt models all tagged "GT*". Plus i also believe there was a licencing issue with the GT4 name in the US. But the fact remains, you go anywhere in teh world other then the US, and they will all be GT4s with All-Trac, not a Celica All-Trac like here in the US. The only real differnce is the ECU's and the trim levels, the RC and Carlos Sainz where essentially stock GT4s with different body cladding representing the world Rally car. And the Group-A homologation models where lighter weight and had a bit more agressive tuning, and freer flowing intake and exaust stock from the factory. But they are the same car. And there is plent of information to back that up out on www.alltrac.net
At anyrate...the simple fact remains, the AWD linkage from a GT4 WIL NOT fit into the GT's unibody. Without fully disassembling the rear of the car, and essentually tubbing out the rear end and loading it on a tube fram. Which would be heavy, and an engineering nightmare. I will see if i can get some under chassis pictures of my friends ST-162 GT-S, and some under chassis shots of his track only ST-165 so you can see the incredible difference in the size of the chassis belly pans. There is no way it will fit. Period. Again, consult alltrac.net
But if you have some secret design, id love to knwo what it is.
Blumen
Coastermaker
Alright, well, i've already said everything pertaining to what you've adressed here, i have no intention of speaking in circles.
The only thing that i would like to point out, is that i meant that the GT4/All Trac were considered different models from the normal fwd Celicas. NOT from each other. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that they were called GT4s out there. I'm also still aware of the fact that the MR2 is a good choice because of stock LSD and all that. However, like i said before, it's usually easier to take a front clip from an Alltrac/GT4, and use that, and if you so desire, such as i already have, purchase an aftermarket LSD.
I do believe that at least in the st205, the Carlos Sainz trim had some performance upgrades as well. I could be wrong, but that's just what i've read. I don't care much about the st205s, so whatever you say will probably be more accurate than me anyway.
Go ahead and feel free to "pwn" me again, but i find the whole thing pointless at this point. I did not post the original statement to try to start this whole "who knows more" debate. Dude, i'm 20, you'll know more. However, i know what i'm going to do to my car, at whatever lengths possible. I never said i was going to leave even the block stock in this project. A JUN 2.2 stroker will be going in there at some point as well. I don't care how little of the original engine remains. If i wanted something original, i would have bought an All Trac at the start up. Who knows, i was even looking into a Curren front end conversion. Whatever, i don't know right now, but i'm not trying to mimic an AllTrac.
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno.htm
If i had known that this would have resulted, i wouldn't have posted the original.
The only thing that i would like to point out, is that i meant that the GT4/All Trac were considered different models from the normal fwd Celicas. NOT from each other. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that they were called GT4s out there. I'm also still aware of the fact that the MR2 is a good choice because of stock LSD and all that. However, like i said before, it's usually easier to take a front clip from an Alltrac/GT4, and use that, and if you so desire, such as i already have, purchase an aftermarket LSD.
I do believe that at least in the st205, the Carlos Sainz trim had some performance upgrades as well. I could be wrong, but that's just what i've read. I don't care much about the st205s, so whatever you say will probably be more accurate than me anyway.
Go ahead and feel free to "pwn" me again, but i find the whole thing pointless at this point. I did not post the original statement to try to start this whole "who knows more" debate. Dude, i'm 20, you'll know more. However, i know what i'm going to do to my car, at whatever lengths possible. I never said i was going to leave even the block stock in this project. A JUN 2.2 stroker will be going in there at some point as well. I don't care how little of the original engine remains. If i wanted something original, i would have bought an All Trac at the start up. Who knows, i was even looking into a Curren front end conversion. Whatever, i don't know right now, but i'm not trying to mimic an AllTrac.
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno.htm
If i had known that this would have resulted, i wouldn't have posted the original.
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Buck-O
Coastermaker
Well, let my preface my post with this...
Considering that this thread is about a game that directly focus's on rediculas over inflated non-realistic tuning, that some people claim as sacred information (like kids playing Gran Turismo claiming they own a 500 BHP Honda Civic), when a person makes a claim about doing an AWD conversion, and building an engine to have 700 BHP, a number that is lofty even to those with the money and resources, in a thread about a game with this type of subject matter, its not hard to realize why i went on the offensive. (Damn that was a long run-on sentence)
So with that said...
Im glad that the GT4/Alltrac issue was just a poor reading comprehension problem.
The Carlos Sainz model was basicly a mase GT4, with fender flairs and front facia and hood to match the World Rally Car. It also had a couple suspension tweaks like lowering, and stiffer rear sway bar. But nothing dramatic. It wasnt really the terror of a driver name branded car like the Lancer Evolution VI Tommi Makinen Edition was.
This isnt sometype of penis contest. I mearly wanted to do a couple of things.
1: Make sure you knew what the hell your talking about.
2: Dispell any myths you may have about what you can and cant do.
Ive worked on plenty of all-tracs and have a preaty good understanding of what cant and cant be done to them. And know the limits of the 3S-GTE preaty well.
Its really all about education. Nothing more.
Though, i still have no idea how you intend on making a front driver into an AWD though. Which is essentially my main question from the first post.
So, maybe you shouldent have posted it in teh first place.
But i guarentee youve learned somthing along the way.
Considering that this thread is about a game that directly focus's on rediculas over inflated non-realistic tuning, that some people claim as sacred information (like kids playing Gran Turismo claiming they own a 500 BHP Honda Civic), when a person makes a claim about doing an AWD conversion, and building an engine to have 700 BHP, a number that is lofty even to those with the money and resources, in a thread about a game with this type of subject matter, its not hard to realize why i went on the offensive. (Damn that was a long run-on sentence)
So with that said...
Im glad that the GT4/Alltrac issue was just a poor reading comprehension problem.
The Carlos Sainz model was basicly a mase GT4, with fender flairs and front facia and hood to match the World Rally Car. It also had a couple suspension tweaks like lowering, and stiffer rear sway bar. But nothing dramatic. It wasnt really the terror of a driver name branded car like the Lancer Evolution VI Tommi Makinen Edition was.
This isnt sometype of penis contest. I mearly wanted to do a couple of things.
1: Make sure you knew what the hell your talking about.
2: Dispell any myths you may have about what you can and cant do.
Ive worked on plenty of all-tracs and have a preaty good understanding of what cant and cant be done to them. And know the limits of the 3S-GTE preaty well.
Its really all about education. Nothing more.
Though, i still have no idea how you intend on making a front driver into an AWD though. Which is essentially my main question from the first post.
So, maybe you shouldent have posted it in teh first place.
But i guarentee youve learned somthing along the way.
<-- whoosh -->
<-- Rob's head -->
<-- Rob's head -->
Blumen
Coastermaker
Ok, point well taken. I'm not going to stop trying though. This bastard WILL be awd when i'm done with it.
I've heard of people taking the RAV4 awd system and grafting it in, but don't know any details about it yet.
What i've learned? The exact difference between the GT/GT-S and the AllTrac rear trunk deck. Everything else was opinion, or lack of clarity, or facts that we both knew.
Time to move on. Thanks for the conversation though. Look around though, 700HP isn't ridiculously overinflated like in the GT series. Provided that you are willing to go ahead and not have stock block, or internals for your engine, which i could care less about, there are reports, and dynoes of OVER 800HP.
This is my last reply in this thread that won't pertain to NFS though. Feel free to reply as you please.
Ben out.
I've heard of people taking the RAV4 awd system and grafting it in, but don't know any details about it yet.
What i've learned? The exact difference between the GT/GT-S and the AllTrac rear trunk deck. Everything else was opinion, or lack of clarity, or facts that we both knew.
Time to move on. Thanks for the conversation though. Look around though, 700HP isn't ridiculously overinflated like in the GT series. Provided that you are willing to go ahead and not have stock block, or internals for your engine, which i could care less about, there are reports, and dynoes of OVER 800HP.
This is my last reply in this thread that won't pertain to NFS though. Feel free to reply as you please.
Ben out.