TSMC and the Process Wars (Long!)

Rory Buszka

Partition Master
If you're a PC enthusiast and you haven't heard of AMD, Intel, NVIDIA, and ATI, you'd probably better just quit now. Before you hurt yourself. Trundle on down to the Fry's, or the Best Buy, and just buy a HP, Gateway, or Compaq that costs what you're willing to spend, and be happy with it.

However, far fewer enthusiasts may know about TSMC, the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. They're the largest independent chip foundry in the world, and they essentially work on contract, building chips for other companies that simply design them. In addition to manufacturing logic chips for VIA, Broadcom, and Marvell, they manufacture the full line of GPUs and motherboard core logic chipsets for both NVIDIA and ATI, as well all AMD chipsets produced since the acquisition of ATI by AMD. (As a side note, Intel's chipsets are manufactured on outmoded equipment formerly used to produce CPUs.)

Some time ago, AMD announced a gradual transition to 'fabless' manufacturing for many of their product lines as part of their 'asset light' strategy to get the company back on track, financially. On August 5, a news story appeared on our front page news section detailing a leak of details regarding AMD's upcoming Fusion CPUs. If you don't know what Fusion is, that's somewhat forgivable, since talk of Fusion development has more or less been towed-under by the tidal wave of press that Intel's similar Nehalem product has been receiving. In that news story on our front page, we learn that AMD plans to have the Fusion's dual-core Phenom-derivative CPUs manufactured on TSMC's brand-spanking-new 40nm process node, and the onboard GPU produced on a TSMC 32nm process node, leapfrogging Intel's 45nm Yorkfield and Wolfdale CPUs entirely.

In the months following the release of Intel's first 45-nanometer CPUs, the tech press buzzed with talk about how AMD would be able to make a comeback in the process war with Intel, after falling a generation behind. (AMD's current Phenom X3 (Toliman) and X4 (Agena) CPUs are produced on a 65nm process.) The first products to come out of AMD on a process smaller than their existing 65nm silicon-on-insulator (SOI) process were the Radeon HD3000-series GPUs. The The hot, power-hungry RV600 GPU was built on a 90nm process, but its mid-range and low-end cousins RV610 and RV630 were built on a 65nm process, which used far less power and produced less heat. However, with the HD3000 series came an across-the-board die shrink to 55nm, smaller than NVIDIA's process for G80-family GPUs and the G92 on which the 8800GT was based. This process shrink was made possible by the fact that TSMC, which had already made the Radeon GPUs for AMD, and for ATI before that, had developed the 55nm process and was able to manufacture it with acceptable yields.

Now, with Fusion, it's becoming clear that AMD plans to use TSMC's process know-how to achieve a similar die-shrink on their CPUs. In the ongoing war for smaller and smaller lithography processes (which decrease power consumption an heat output), this makes TSMC not unlike a war profiteer, providing the products used by both rival factions. The AMD and NVIDIA GPU war comes to mind, since both product lines are manufactured by TSMC. AMD took advantage of TSMC's 55nm process, while NVIDIA's GPUs continued to be made on a 65nm process, likely not more than several hundred feet away. In the news article we published, AMD also plans to use TSMC's 32nm process for the "Bulldozer" CPU, which suggests that TSMC plays a major role in AMD's 'fabless' future.

The major question in my mind is this: Can it be in any way thought of as wise for a major CPU manufacturer like AMD to base their future process-shrink successes (and overall competitive edge therein) on the capabilities of a company like TSMC, which provides chip-fab services for direct competitors? If a company like Intel (which presently owns a large number of fabrication facilities in various countries) were to see the benefits of going asset-light and contracting a chip foundry to produce their newest and most competitive products, would there be any other company than TSMC capable of handling that task?

Discuss.
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
The major question in my mind is this: Can it be in any way thought of as wise for a major CPU manufacturer like AMD to base their future process-shrink successes (and overall competitive edge therein) on the capabilities of a company like TSMC,

Ah, but haven't NVIDIA and ATI done exactly this for not just years, but the better part of a decade? TSMC is not a monopoly, even if they are the largest player in their respective market. UMC and a sprinkling of small players exist, although I wouldn't know what node UMC currently offers.

Much of the details you mention about AMD's future plans I had not heard, especially the fabless part. But to be honest, I went from incredulity to the realization that this is an extremely smart move if true. The thing is, for every die shrink we have undergone since 130/90nm, the costs of R&D to develop the future process ndoes have escalated almost exponentially. The costs of 45, 32, all the way down to 11nm are definitely exponentially higher for R&D. And as you noted one reason Intel has about 15 something odd Fabs is because they put them to use making chipsets and other things long after their usefulness has passed. That significantly helps them spread the costs out and makes their strategy feasible in the first place.

What makes me blink is what AMD plans to do with their current two FABs, not to mention the third in New York that they cannot cancel out of without a HUGE cost penalty through the various tax breaks, incentives given, and promises made on the land they already bought. They were ready to break ground January 2007 iirc... AMD chopped their own leg off to reinvest into their two fabs and bring them up to date, and now that they finally have two 300mm wafer 45nm chip fabs (or at least one of the two is 45nm) they still need to get all they can out of them.

However the brilliance is they are right... their fabs still are behind the times. Intel is gearing up for 450mm wafers and so is TSMC. And AMD doesn't have much, if any investments left in sub-45nm proccess nodes, unlike Intel which is already working on 11nm now.

So by doing this (again, if true), AMD not only drops all future costs on fabs (Only about a few tens of billions of dollars), but they suddenly are catapulted ahead of Intel's process node... this would be the only advantage they would have, but it is still a very good one. Cheaper coast per chip which they need to play the pricing game, and faster chips due to the shrink. And maybe with any luck TSMC can use their fabbing skills to deliver high-performing silicon, something AMD either never could master or never seemed to care about, I'm not sure which. AMD never was able to even come close to matching Intel's cache densities, which TSMC could possibly help fix amongst other things with their expertise.

That begs the question though... fabbing <1GHz GPU chip is one thing, but has TSMC ever fabbed a 2GHz or 3GHz chip before?

Edit: Come to think on it a bit more, this would NOT actually catapult AMD ahead of Intel's process node. TSMC isn't slated to bring 40nm online until Q1'09. 32nm won't show until the 2nd half of that year I believe... which means by the time AMD gets 40nm and 32nm CPUs and Fuzion out the door, Intel will be launching Westmere, the 32nm Nehalem shrink for 2010. They would have only 6 months assuming AMD had the design ready to fab soon as TSMC was ready. It'd still take a few revisions to work out kinks in the silicon, and any issues between the design and TSMC's foundry process after TSMC is set to go in Q1. ATI has been doing this for years, but AMD hasn't.
 
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Rory Buszka

Partition Master
I agree that in the short term, a partnership with TSMC will help AMD at least grasp Intel's heel in the process department, and do it on the cheap. My main concern is in the long term - what will this do for AMD's competitive edge in the future if they're stuck with whatever process they can essentially "buy" from TSMC? Does AMD simply consign themselves to playing second-fiddle in the process race from here onward?

I don't know if AMD will ever go truly 'fabless'. Their ATI product line is already fabless, and Shrike and Falcon will be built by TSMC, but they still have lots of dosh invested in their New Yawk 65nm operation, and there'll be some hell to pay (the State of New York being 'hell' in this case...howdya like that, Matt S?!) if AMD simply unloads that facility. There are probably other things a chip maker can do with a 65nm fab. Like build northbridges or southbridges. Or...low-power commodity CPUs like Atom and Nano.
 
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Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
I agree that in the short term, a partnership with TSMC will help AMD at least grasp Intel's heel in the process department, and do it on the cheap. My main concern is in the long term - what will this do for AMD's competitive edge in the future if they're stuck with whatever process they can essentially "buy" from TSMC? Does AMD simply consign themselves to playing second-fiddle in the process race from here onward?

AMD has not held a competitive edge in manufacturing that I can think of? Intel switched from 200mm to 300mm wafers first, always shrank their chips first, and switched away from SOI first due to the reported leakage issues with it. Currently, Intel+TSMC will have 450mm wafer production soon, and 32nm chips by next year.

I would have to assume AMD has work done on 32nm chips, but they are still trying to ramp up 45nm High-K dielectric chips to full production, that have not even launched yet. In fact they were talking about not using High-K at 45nm until later on, so until it is confirmed they are using High-K metal based gates, they are going to be having lower clocking chips. I'm not sure Deneb is even going to have that.

Intel has been conducting research on how to fab future chips all the way down to 11nm, I'm certain AMD has almost nothing done beyond 32nm. They've been slicing away at their R&D budget for the past two years to trim 7, going on 8 consecutive quarters of losses.

I don't know if AMD will ever go truly 'fabless'. Their ATI product line is already fabless, and Shrike and Falcon will be built by TSMC, but they still have lots of dosh invested in their New Yawk 65nm operation, and there'll be some hell to pay (the State of New York being 'hell' in this case...howdya like that, Matt S?!) if AMD simply unloads that facility. There are probably other things a chip maker can do with a 65nm fab. Like build northbridges or southbridges. Or...low-power commodity CPUs like Atom and Nano.

First, there are two points I'd like to make. The first one is that yeah, you are very likely correct they are not going to go fabless. They need to do something with their New York fab, and if they are building it from scratch then they definitely will be building it with the latest FABing technology. I'd hope. I'm not sure they can afford to right now. :rolleyes:

The second is, they can't fully utilize old fab processes for chips like Nano or Atom. Look at what Intel did with their Atom platform... they built a 45nm Atom, then built a 130nm chipset... the chipset (Poulsbo) consumes more power than the processor!! Which is to be expected considering it is something of 10x the size. Link to image.

You can't build a 45nm low power chip then chain it to a high power chipset, Intel never designed Silverthrone (Atom+Poulsbo) to live up to it's best potential, they just wanted to see how it would go. If no unforseen issues arose then they would shrink the chipset (and halve the platform power consumption) later, giving them time to tweak the Atom design as well and leaving enough margins to make it look good regardless.

Now that Intel has the ability to build the chipset into the CPU, their future goal with Atom is likely to do exactly that and do away with having more chips and larger motherboard designs that only consume additional power to maintain, by forgoing a chipset at all. Only a few stray chips for additional features or functionality would be needed. Or at least that is my theory. Didn't Intel just launch several SoC designs, come to think of it? That'd be the first step to doing so...
 
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Rory Buszka

Partition Master
Well, here's a potential answer to the 'fabless' question -- according to new rumors, AMD could split off its manufacturing arm as another company, and remain a completely fabless chip designer. TGDaily article...
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
It's also an intriguing proposal... The fabbing company can produce semiconductors for anyone just like TSMC and UMC. Certainly they would have to be within the top 5 such fabbing companies in terms of technology, even if Intel and TSMC are ahead of them? With the number of such fabbing companies in existance having shrunk dramatically over the last 8 years, there will be room for them.

If AMD can actually manage to make a profit with CPU prices what they are, then they can likely afford to directly or indirectly compete with fabbing companies. The fabbing spinoff can in turn use that revenue to continually improve their technology, while AMD can sit back and only worry about CPU design and who best to source it from.

I'm just wondering why are they so hush about it? Call me cynical but to me it seems to hurt their credibility more than help to just tout the "Asset-Smart" lure about without going into details for so long.
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
This article on "AMD reaching 22nm first before Intel" was kind of funny. Not sure how much more slanted it can get! http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38941/135/

AMD has yet to launch 45nm. So forget 22nm, better question is when will AMD launch 32nm?

A little digging, apparently AMD's New York fab is being built for 32nm. So perhaps not until AMD completes construction of their new fab in 2010 / 2011, and 32nm chips by 2012. So 22nm won't be seen from AMD until 6+ years from now. Will they still be around? ;)
 
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