HTPC ... to the next level.

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
I dug this out of one of the case articles...

Some industry have audaciously declared the HTPC to be a failed technology, citing the comparatively complex keyboard-and-mouse control scheme of HTPCs when compared to set-top-box media extender units ...

This comes as no surprise to me. But it does sadden.

Way back in the mid 1990s when AVI format video finally worked worth a darn on PCs, a couple of friends and I went off and got all adventurous... We built a P3 box into a coffee table, along with a data projector. We tossed in a TV tuner card. The sound system was a SoundBlaster card hooked up to a conventional stereo amplifier... big amp, huge speakers... WOW sound. This setup then went into my friend's basement listening room along with a silver screen, 3 love seats and a needlessly big beer fridge. It ran like a standard PC, there was a mouse and keyboard on top of the coffee table... and the movies and music videos were (for the time) totally mind boggling.

Fast forward to last week...

I'm talking with a couple of guys at the local parts bin and this whole HTPC thing comes up. Their immediate gripe? It's so darned awkward to use. And they're right... HTPC setups tend to massively suck because they are so dumbed down you have to reboot them just to play a game...

So, I gave them an alternative... "How about instead of a dumbed-down HTPC we work towards a truly intelligent media server that sits at the focus of a home network?" Now THAT got their attention... Why not use the computer to totally replace the television set, FM/Sat receiver, DVD/BlueRay player, game system and disc collection? It's all possible right now, today... why isn't it done?

In the flow of conversation, I latched onto what I think is one of the primary reasons PCs (including Mac) have made such poor penetration into home entertainment...

"But, it's a COMPUTER" ...

People still think of computers as separate entities, something different and aside from the other functions of home media. Even though they have their computers play music while catching up on their email, even when they watch movies on their monitors, even when they listen to radio stations in foreign lands over the internet, they STILL think of it as something separate and different.

To answer the "Why?" question. I think this is largely for two reasons...

1) Cases ... Even HTPC cases still come off as computer cases... exposed cutouts, cheezy blinking lights, whirring fans etc. People are very visual, if it looks like a computer they won't think of it as home entertainment gear.

2) Dumbness ... When you start up a "Media Center Edition" of just about any operating system, you are presented with a LESS capable version of the OS. Instead of enhanced media capabilities you see something dumbed down to look like a TV set... and that is a serious error in judgement from software manufacturers. People know how to use computers... let them. A media center PC should be a PC with superior media capabilities -- not some lame duck reduced to a 5 selection menu,

So after a rambling preamble we get to my big questions...

What would be your "ideal" version of an HTPC?
What needs to be done to make PCs a viable replacement for conventional gear?
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
Why not use the computer to totally replace the television set, FM/Sat receiver, DVD/BlueRay player, game system and disc collection? It's all possible right now, today... why isn't it done?

Because piping your cable or SAT TV into your computer isn't fully allowed due to DRM issues. Granted you can do so with the purchase of a TV tuner equipped card, but for most programming you won't be able to watch everything especially any non standard channels.

I don't remember all the specifics, but Anand himself ran an article where he attepted to do this with an external cablecard capable graphics/tuner card from ATI. The hoops he was required to go through by Time Warner Cable and the sacrifices required to try and get it functional were apalling... I've not heard anything since about it and assumed the hardware failed to catch on (or even work).

For non-cablecard capable tuners (if I remember correctly) it's like having cable TV without a cable box... you can still watch the first hundred basic channels, but anything beyond those you wouldn't have access to. If anything's changed in the last couple years I'd be interested in hearing & reading about it.

My 24" monitor has the same physical viewing "screen" width as my 36" CRT TV. (If that seems odd then remember how LCDs and CRT TV screens are measured, CRT's include the plastic housing while LCDs only measure the actual screen). Obviously my widescreen format monitor isn't as tall as the 36" TV screen, but again the resolution is so much better and the image couldn't be any more clear or sharp. My CRT TV is starting to wear out and if I could simply buy a good tuner and plug it into my computer I would do so in a heartbeat rather than have to buy a new TV. It would also give me all the reason to invest in a 30" LCD display once those become a bit more affordable in a few years...
 
Last edited:

Ben

Site Developer
Why not use the computer to totally replace the television set, FM/Sat receiver, DVD/BlueRay player, game system and disc collection? It's all possible right now, today... why isn't it done?

The problem is the computer part. Running an HTPC is great if you can get the OS to work correctly. I've had a lot of issues with Media Center under Vista, from randomly not recording to locking up the entire machine, to slow channel changing. Its just easier to have a TV without having to worry about the entire OS. I suppose a lot of the issues I ran into could be due to me running x64 Vista and using the PC as a general puprose OS instead of it just serving TV all day, but campatibility issues arouse it seems. I'd like to be able to use the OS to do other tasks instead of just soley having HTPC funtionality, but perhaps for most users this won't be an issue.
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
Heh, my TWC DVR box randomly decides not to record shows, so I'd consider that a toss up! I've had to unplug the DVR twice so far to hard reset it... there is even a sticker on the back of the unit suggesting customers do exactly that if it locks up. It's a Scientific Atlantica piece of junk.

I do already play DVDs, and more importantly all HD content on my computer along with music.
 

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
Wow, interesting replies so far... thanks guys!

Perhaps it would help if I were to describe what I've been doing for a few months now.

First.. I tossed my television. No TV, no sat, no tuner cards... Funny thing is I really don't miss it.

For the most part my viewing and listening comes off the internet. Some streaming, but mostly it's downloaded and enjoyed later. This I find is more than adequate for my wants and needs and, since I can archive the stuff, I can also get rid of the DVD player (although I do have a drive in the comp) and I can box up my DVD collection. 200 movies and counting.... :)

I don't use the Media Center version of the OS. I do use the full OS with the "web ui" of Media Player Classic (Home Cinema version) and similar interfaces of other programs to remote control the experience. I'm also working on software to streamline that task into a standard remote control interface, allowing me to control the HTPC from any node on my lan... so far so good... I'll know better when the software is finished but it's all very promising right now.

So to add my description of the "ideal" HTPC... it's an dedicated server system that is an archive host, a file server, a really powerful media player and a downloader...

I'm going to be picking up a TV card somewhere down the line... so I really do appreciate the comments on the difficulties others have run into.

Keep it going... Your comments are very helpful.
 

madstork91

The One, The Only...
This thread moves me, relates to me, and call to me.

In college:
Living room:
I have an olg rig hooked up to a projector in the living room with a projector over head and a stereo underneath it all.

This was by no means "HD" since it used a VGA connection ot the projector. But I could use the comp to play anything I had put on it. But the picture was astounding. People loved it. And it was 115" across. :) (I even gave a tutoring session for my stats class once using my WACOM tablet.)

For cable I used a the basic connection on a DVD/VCR player. (I played football and needed space for tapes.) This gave me access to DVD's and also gave me additional input for a gaming set up. My Wii on a 115" screen is still the best setup I have seen yet, and how people play tennis on a 30" really confuses me.

Bedroom:
Until my last semester I had a 32" with a VGA connection. And then it died. :( I was sad. And it happened the same night I had to finish a paper. But the 32" was awesome for watching some movies in my room. and I had surround sound. I like working form my bed when I studied as well.

The monitor also had a coaxial in and PIP, so I could play a game with family guy running in the top corner, completely separate from my PC.

The problems I've faced:
Projectors are really fucking expensive when you try to go into the "HD" realm. Period. But there are ways to do it on something besides VGA.

Unless you go wireless for a keyboard + mouse setup, you are about to have some problems with wires, and making things feel like an office. This is not conforming to a home theater setup.

Integration of devices in a home theater system. As a few people have pointed out, cable and satellite companies are nothing but a problem when it comes to this setup. The reason for this could be two fold...
1) They have not found a way to make money off of this.
2) The people who would have developed this technology ultimately saw issues arising with the cable company in the realm of who and what is handling the information.

No. 1 is probably more on the money. Even most peoples DVR's have some serious restrictions on them. This sucks. And really comes down to a copyright/DRM issue that the cable company hides behind "technology" to avoid the subject.

Ideas on improving my setup's:

A TV tunner card in addition to a A/V input on computer in the living room would have allowed me to skip the DVD/VCR set up for everything but the VCR (which i no longer need) Do they make HD input cards? This would be all you need to bypass half the problems with this idea... You would still be limited to changing channels with a remote using your box though :-/

An opensource solution to satellite and/or cable boxes. This breaks a law I'm sure.. But I would even be willing to pay a company to give me a box that simply let me control the channel from my computer. (USB anyone?)

Multiple screens and desktops from a single card. Running an extended desktop is one thing... cloning a screen is ok too... But having a 15" monitor set up near you, and then a larger HD screen for viewing things would be the preferred method. There is even a little 8" mini LCD monitor that would be idea for a little table near a couch. But in order for this to be a more seamless and less messy operation, you need a way to go back to the old school way of doing multiple monitors from a single card. Separate displays.

A really big HD screen, or projector. You can ultimately hide more wires, and look cooler with a projector. It is also easier to project onto a wall, and have the couch, computer, and everything else near each other.

A ceiling that is > 9' tall if I used a projector. Easier to projecto above peoples heads.
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
Whew, there's a lot of great thoughts here.

2Tired2Tango said:
HTPC setups tend to massively suck because they are so dumbed down you have to reboot them just to play a game...

I as much enjoy to be a power user as much as the next guy, but I quite like media centre front-ends, as long as they're done well. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case right now, and you really have to try a huge array before you find one that suits your fancy. To me, an ideal media center frontend would be customizable and modular. Let it allow you to add new menus and icons to it. For example, it would be nice to have a menu for games, and then you could create shortcuts to different games on the machine, and download custom icons so it would continue to look nice (there are many free resources for high-res icons).

I agree on the HTPC front as well though... most cases do look like cases, and that can be a turn-off. SilverStone is one company that's trying to change that though, such as with their GT02 I think it's called. The higher-end version offers an LCD, but also a slot-loader ODD, so really, there's nothing that resembles a PC, except the power button perhaps. We need a lot more of this though, because I admit, I don't want to see an unfilled ODD slot underneath my TV.

That said, my ideal HTPC would be one that's of a smaller form-factor... not one that's larger than my Xbox and PlayStation stacked on top of each other. It would likely consist of an mATX board, but have support for an HD TV tuner and at least 1TB of storage for recording. It would also have WiFi, so I could stream even more content from another PC, or the web. Oh, and a silent machine would be nice... HTPC's shouldn't make any noise whatsoever. Heat is better than noise, as far as I'm concerned.

Ben said:
The problem is the computer part. Running an HTPC is great if you can get the OS to work correctly.

This is actually something Brett will be tackling soon. He'll be writing a few articles on both building and setting up an HTPC, using... Linux ;-) He claims that Linux is better for MCE use than Windows, and even I'm interested to see how that's possible.

Stork: I'm not a projector guy, but I can side with you on the expense aspect. I once dropped by a Toshiba booth at some event and they were showing their latest HD projectors off. After I asked their retail price, I wish I hadn't, heh.
 

Ben

Site Developer
That said, my ideal HTPC would be one that's of a smaller form-factor... not one that's larger than my Xbox and PlayStation stacked on top of each other. It would likely consist of an mATX board, but have support for an HD TV tuner and at least 1TB of storage for recording. It would also have WiFi, so I could stream even more content from another PC, or the web. Oh, and a silent machine would be nice... HTPC's shouldn't make any noise whatsoever. Heat is better than noise, as far as I'm concerned.

Its this reason that that I've seen quite a few guides now doing frontend type machines that offload the work to a backend HTPC box that is loud, hot, and ugly. Your machine in your living room can be small, quiet, and pretty and still function. I know Ars recommened a setup like this awhile back as well. I guess the main issue that remains then is the software.

I've never used any Linux based HTPCs as I never really understood how any of it worked. A Vista based Media Center PC couldn't be easier to setup and I was happy with mine for awhile. The main problem I had though was that trying to do other work on the PC while it was recording often crashed it and such, not really convient at that point.
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
2Tired2Tango said:
First.. I tossed my television. No TV, no sat, no tuner cards... Funny thing is I really don't miss it.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same. Of the few TV shows I watch quite a few are educational, but almost everything I watch isn't legally available online for viewing. The Universe, Patton 360, Mythbusters, Modern Marvels, etc... some shows that aren't available at all locally like Top Gear can be found online, but not most shows that I watch.

Do keep in mind when you shop for TV cards... don't bother with an analog tuner anymore, you're going to want a digital tuner. And if all possible one that can accept scrambled stations, or uses a cablecard system to allow you to watch scrambled channels or something along those lines. Some can pick up OTA stuff, and you might be surprised just how many stations have digital OTA stations broadcasting now.

madstork91 said:
A TV tunner card in addition to a A/V input on computer in the living room would have allowed me to skip the DVD/VCR set up for everything but the VCR (which i no longer need) Do they make HD input cards? This would be all you need to bypass half the problems with this idea... You would still be limited to changing channels with a remote using your box though :-/

An opensource solution to satellite and/or cable boxes. This breaks a law I'm sure.. But I would even be willing to pay a company to give me a box that simply let me control the channel from my computer. (USB anyone?)

The box is there to unscramble the channels... cable companies have spent the last few years scrambling as much content as they technically can, which is why TV's can play up to the first hundred channels but usually not anything else.

Cards like the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 can record 1080 i/p content and support current cable formats, but they still won't unscramble scrambled channels.
 

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
I as much enjoy to be a power user as much as the next guy, but I quite like media centre front-ends, as long as they're done well. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case right now, and you really have to try a huge array before you find one that suits your fancy. To me, an ideal media center frontend would be customizable and modular. Let it allow you to add new menus and icons to it. For example, it would be nice to have a menu for games, and then you could create shortcuts to different games on the machine, and download custom icons so it would continue to look nice (there are many free resources for high-res icons).

Ever thought of simply creating a "media" user account and re-arranging the start bar? Or perhaps, creating a folder on the desktop with shortcuts... set the icon size to about 72 pixels and you'll be surprised how handy you can make it.

One thing I'm working on (and have mostly working) is network based remote control functionality. Picture this scenario... your "big gun" system sits in your living room, 20 feet away. You're having breakfast at the dining room table, catching up on email with your laptop and decide you want a little music. Normally if you click on a play list you end up listening it on those crappy little laptop speakers, with the big system serving you the files, but otherwise silent... Picture right clicking on the play list, selecting "Play on HTPC" and having your best sound system playing the music for you... toss in the ability to pause/resume and control volume ... now expand that to Blackberry, smart phones etc. It gets pretty impressive...


I agree on the HTPC front as well though... most cases do look like cases, and that can be a turn-off.

Exactly. That's because, despite trying to appeal to the home theatre market, it's still a computer company thinking like a computer company...


That said, my ideal HTPC would be one that's of a smaller form-factor...

Seen the Mini-itx yet? About half the size of micro-atx... but even the m-atx boxes can be packed down quite small. It's not actually size that's the issue... it's styling.
 

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
Unfortunately, I can't say the same. Of the few TV shows I watch quite a few are educational, but almost everything I watch isn't legally available online for viewing.

Most of the stuff I enjoyed went off air in the 90s.

Thanks for the pointer about DTV... Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about an analog tuner... I live close enough to Toronto and Hamilton that I can already get a bunch of DTV stuff off-air... and since most of what I watch is news or documentary, I've been able to get it all online so far.
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
Ben said:
Its this reason that that I've seen quite a few guides now doing frontend type machines that offload the work to a backend HTPC box that is loud, hot, and ugly.

That's not a bad idea either, to be honest. EVGA just released a product not long ago that does the same thing for a regular desktop. You plug in a PCI card to the main machine, then use the external box elsewhere in the house to use the main computer through the network at what EVGA claims to be full speed. Sounds great, but the price right now is a little extreme ($800).

Kougar said:
Of the few TV shows I watch quite a few are educational, but almost everything I watch isn't legally available online for viewing.

Try living in Canada... the situation is made even worse. I'm with you though... my cable bill is a little asinine, but I watch channels like Discovery HD all the time. LOT of great programming there. Still waiting for Dirty Jobs to go HD though...

2Tired2Tango said:
Ever thought of simply creating a "media" user account and re-arranging the start bar?

I'm kind of the mindset that you mentioned in your initial post... I don't want to sit back and turn on the TV and deal with a computer, and I really don't care to see the Windows desktop, except for necessary setup and the like. Ideally, I'd like everything through a clean menu system, although it seems unlikely. I just don't want to sit back on the couch, load up VLC or something similar and go search for a video file. That's not enjoyable. I'd like the media to be all categorized so I can just back and access it with a remote.

Where games are concerned, I'd probably have no choice but to keep a shortcut on the desktop, and that's fine really. I do think as HTPCs continue to grow more in popularity, the frontends should continue to get even better and maybe include such customization.

2Tired2Tango said:
You're having breakfast at the dining room table, catching up on email with your laptop and decide you want a little music.

Sounds good, but at the kitchen table, what are you controlling it with exactly? You have another PC there or something? Or a notebook?

2Tired2Tango said:
Seen the Mini-itx yet?

That's a definite possibility for the remote server type scenario, but the options are extremely limited there, especially with regards to chassis', power supplies and overall power. You can use a low-powered Quad-Core in those suckers, and Zotac's boards even have WiFi, but as I was looking at this with Brett a few weeks ago, we realized that it's far too much of a hassle, unless you really, really want the smallest form-factor possible. I'd be fine with mATX if it meant far more possibilities.
 

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
Sounds good, but at the kitchen table, what are you controlling it with exactly? You have another PC there or something? Or a notebook?

From the laptop, over your lan. (Or any other computer in your house)

Without giving away how I do it... Picture a well organized archive, with network shortcuts on your laptop's desktop for playlists, movies, etc. Open the folder, find the file, right click and select "Play on HTPC". Once the program starts on the htpc a small remote opens on the laptop and you have full control over the playback.

Now take that one step further... lets say you have 3 computers... The HTPC in your living room, a big ole gaming machine in the bedroom and your laptop, on the kitchen table... From the laptop, cruise your shares, find a movie on the bedroom machine, right click "Play on HTPC" up pops a remote control and off you go...

And a final step... once the movie or playlist is playing and the volume etc. is right, you can turn off the laptop and sit back to enjoy the show...

And :D before the doubting thomases show up... yes I have it working well enough to call it an "alpha version".

Since many mobile devices can now connect via WiFi... it's only a matter of re-compiling and minor alteration to make it work on them as well.
 
Last edited:

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
Hmm, that sounds like it has possibilities... you could probably market that!

A good friend of mine hacked his home entertainment setup to stream PC media to his Xbox 360 and watch it that way since all of that is piped into his surround sound setup, but it wasn't quite bug free from the sound of it.
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
Sounds good 2Tired2Tango, I'm looking forward to seeing a finished product! You must be one heck of a coder to get all that done. Sounds great to me though... it would be cool to see something like that spread from a notebook to something even smaller, like an LCD touchscreen. Not everyone wants to keep their notebook at the table (I'm certainly not one of them, hah).
 

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
Sounds good 2Tired2Tango, I'm looking forward to seeing a finished product! You must be one heck of a coder to get all that done. Sounds great to me though... it would be cool to see something like that spread from a notebook to something even smaller, like an LCD touchscreen. Not everyone wants to keep their notebook at the table (I'm certainly not one of them, hah).

How about blackberry or smart phone?

I'm not particularly interested in writing for those platforms but I have no problem working something out with someone who is.

And, no, not a super-coder ... I'm just real persistent.
 

2Tired2Tango

Tech Monkey
Hmm, that sounds like it has possibilities... you could probably market that!

A good friend of mine hacked his home entertainment setup to stream PC media to his Xbox 360 and watch it that way since all of that is piped into his surround sound setup, but it wasn't quite bug free from the sound of it.

Interesting hack...

In this case the video is shown on the montor (projector, monster big TV, etc.) and sound system connected directly to the HTPC. It's an AMD 64 dual core, 2.2ghz, 2gb ram, 2 x 500g hd, 1 terabyte hd (on USB), Asus M2N mobo. Playing XVid and AC3 Using MPClassic runs about 9% CPU usage...

This afternoon I had it playing a movie, downloading a torrent, defraging 2 of it's 3 drives and serving files for to the DVD burner running in my laptop... 38% CPU usage, no problem.


But, I seem to have hijacked my own thread here :eek: ... I'm still very interested in everytone's ideas for the perfect HTPC...
 
Top