sbrehm72255
Tech Monkey
I have no clus as to what the prices are lately, I haven't been out in 2 weeks............
Gas Prices
- Thread starter maddmaxx
- Start date
leecho7
Partition Master
I just read that GM is stopping production of the H1 series of the civilian Hummer. That car had 10 miles to the gallon. Geeze, how can anyone drive that except for the extremely rich and/or stupid?
I've been walking a lot more to places. My grocery store is about a 15 minute walk from my place.
I've been walking a lot more to places. My grocery store is about a 15 minute walk from my place.
Buck-O
Coastermaker
leecho7 said:
Yet they arent dropping production of the H2...even though it gets roughly the same gas milage.
The H1 simpyl wasnt marketable anymore. Becuase it was as large of a vehicle as it was, there was a predisposed notion that it was a gas guzzler. Kinda like, if you throw the word "hybrid" onto somthing, it means it get better gas milage, even its its less then a 5% savings, for twice the price. The gas issue was a nice marketing ploy. But, like i said, if that where the real case, they would have kicked the H2 as well, becuase it bairly get 15 MPG.
Horray for marketing and media spin.
Last edited:
Unfortunately marketing surveys show that the average american wants MORE power, instead of better gas mileage, even though most complain/are hurt by high gas prices.
the Hybrids can be built to be super effecient or to give a power boost without having to pay for/fuel a big engine.
My parents and my father in law both have prius's (2002 & 2005)
both are well built cars with plenty of power for the average user while getting -45-55 MPG. this year toyota has the camry (best selling car in the US for many years) hybrid for those a bigger somewhat more luxerous car that still gets an MPG in the high 30-40's vs mid to low 20's on the standard models.
I think this is the type hybrid that the avaerage US household will buy and use on a mass scale and could make a huge difference in fuel use/pollution/etc. (too bad US auto makers still haven't got the message, and are most going the MORE POWER route)
still if this technology is adapted to all vechile types and even if it only saves a few MPG on pickup.suvs and vans it's a big step in the right direction
How, how much and where you still has a big effect on fuel useage,
the Hybrids can be built to be super effecient or to give a power boost without having to pay for/fuel a big engine.
My parents and my father in law both have prius's (2002 & 2005)
both are well built cars with plenty of power for the average user while getting -45-55 MPG. this year toyota has the camry (best selling car in the US for many years) hybrid for those a bigger somewhat more luxerous car that still gets an MPG in the high 30-40's vs mid to low 20's on the standard models.
I think this is the type hybrid that the avaerage US household will buy and use on a mass scale and could make a huge difference in fuel use/pollution/etc. (too bad US auto makers still haven't got the message, and are most going the MORE POWER route)
still if this technology is adapted to all vechile types and even if it only saves a few MPG on pickup.suvs and vans it's a big step in the right direction
How, how much and where you still has a big effect on fuel useage,
Bobbythecat
E.M.I.
Of course, unless the entire economy decides to consume less resources, the gasoline problem would be the least of our concerns. Long-term economic planning, of course, is pointless because in the long-run, we're all dead. And the living then get to pick up the tab and figure things out for us. Hurray to our economic model. Keep up the good milage.
leecho7
Partition Master
Another thing that'll happen when we run out of oil is that we'll loose the ability to make plastics, asphalt, paint, and numerous amounts of other materials.
I remember talking to a Dutch guy not too long ago. He had an Opel diesel powered van. Opel is a car company in Europe, there is no Opel dealer in the US. So I was kinda suprised to see that car on US soil.
The car ran quietly, smoothly, and more environmentally friendly than our standard gasoline powered cars. He also said that he gets about 55mpg highway on that car.
But then again, 'I don't speak freaky deaky Dutch'. (Dr. Evil, from Austin Powers.)
I remember talking to a Dutch guy not too long ago. He had an Opel diesel powered van. Opel is a car company in Europe, there is no Opel dealer in the US. So I was kinda suprised to see that car on US soil.
The car ran quietly, smoothly, and more environmentally friendly than our standard gasoline powered cars. He also said that he gets about 55mpg highway on that car.
But then again, 'I don't speak freaky deaky Dutch'. (Dr. Evil, from Austin Powers.)
Buck-O
Coastermaker
I dont think we are likely to see a Diesel Hybrid. As good of an idea as it may be.
And i doubt we will really see that much of an impact int he US when the new European Diesel standard hits in 2007 either.
And heres my reason for why.
The oil cartel is still a business. And as a business they have to move their major product in order to make money. That major product, is gasoline. Gasoline nets the largest profit margin of the petrol chemicles, becuase its refinment process is fairly advanced, the amount of waste production is minimal, and most importantly, your final product can be thinned to stretch it farther. And no, your not crazy if you think that sounds a bit like a distribution chain for cocain. But anyway...
They have to sell gasoline to see profits.
Now, Diesel on the other hand, though supplied buy the oil cartels as well, doesnt HAVE to come from them to be produced.
Becuase if you can produce oil, in any form, vegetable, Canola, Soybean, COconut, Corn, Olive, Whale, you name it, you can covert it into a combustable fuel, and distill it into Diesel. Completely circumventing the oil companies, and putting the production into the hand of private individuals, and dare i saw, the government itself. Slashing a huge portion of their profits right out from underneath them.
So its better for the oil companies to support "gas saving" technologies like Hybrid cars, becuase its better to loose less then one percent of your profit margin, and still sell your major product.
Then it is to support an alternative that could potentially take a very large chunk of your profits away.
Now you may be asking why does Diesel work in Europe then, where over 50% of the vehicles on the road are powered by Diesel? Well, its simple really. WIth the overly socialist thinking of the countries that make up the EUropean Union (read: money hungry tax states), they have regulated their oil producers. Guarenteeing the goverment gets a very large piece of the pie. And infact alot of the major European oil companies, are owned by European Union countries, Namely France (Total/Fina/Elf) and the Netherlands (Royal Dutch/Shell) [both of whom had major oil stakes in Iraq right after Gulf War I, and people wonder why they had a problem with the US going in there and giving it back to the Iraqi people, but thats another story, and a different political discussion]. Anyway, becuase the governments regulate the oil production, the diesel has to come from its producers, and therefor the profit margins are maintained. So diesel works in Europe, becuase there is no chance of Biodiesel ever really taking hold, as long as the various oil producing contries in the European Union have their say about it. Becuase then its just a couple of crazy brits, and a few farmers that get any benefit. Where as here in teh US, the free market, and do it yourself nature of Capitalism, guarentees you nothing, if not the fact that eventually somone else will come along and do it better.
My personal oppinion is that with hybrids being pushed as hard as they are, it only goes to prove that diesel is the better alternative for this country, and they want to try and make sure that the idea of Diesel being better, never gets a foot hold. Becuase if Diesel is found out to be the better option for the typical american citizen, and biodiesel take a major role in the distrobution of the US fuel market. They stand to loose alot of money. And when ExxonMobile is the largest, and most expensive stock out there, the share holders expect profits, and lots of them.
No matter how you choose to look at it the facts still remains... Most americans use the highway, and that means speeds at 60mph and above. I.e. the realm of which hybrid technology means, and does nothing. ANd where Diesels can easily get upwards of 50 MPG, all day long.
In a perfect world, we would all be driving Hydrogen powered cars. It can work for fuel cells for electricity, and for combustion engines as well. The ultimate single fuel, dual powered hybrid that actually truely works in an extremely economicle way.
Only problem is that producing hydrogen is either extremely harmful to the environment, or requires alot of electricity to produce. So its not exactly the best alternative fuel, though the ways in which it can be used, are seconed to none. But it very well could be a viable alternative, especially if nuclear power ever overcomes its smear campaign from environmentalist no-nothings in the 80's, that prevented it from becoming the main power source for the United States. ITs certaintly clean enough, and can produce enough excess electricity, to allow for the production of Hydrogen from water through electrolytic process, seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen. But, i think tis more pipe dream then reality...at least for this country.
Ok, thats plenty to chew on, so ill leave it at that for now.
And i doubt we will really see that much of an impact int he US when the new European Diesel standard hits in 2007 either.
And heres my reason for why.
The oil cartel is still a business. And as a business they have to move their major product in order to make money. That major product, is gasoline. Gasoline nets the largest profit margin of the petrol chemicles, becuase its refinment process is fairly advanced, the amount of waste production is minimal, and most importantly, your final product can be thinned to stretch it farther. And no, your not crazy if you think that sounds a bit like a distribution chain for cocain. But anyway...
They have to sell gasoline to see profits.
Now, Diesel on the other hand, though supplied buy the oil cartels as well, doesnt HAVE to come from them to be produced.
Becuase if you can produce oil, in any form, vegetable, Canola, Soybean, COconut, Corn, Olive, Whale, you name it, you can covert it into a combustable fuel, and distill it into Diesel. Completely circumventing the oil companies, and putting the production into the hand of private individuals, and dare i saw, the government itself. Slashing a huge portion of their profits right out from underneath them.
So its better for the oil companies to support "gas saving" technologies like Hybrid cars, becuase its better to loose less then one percent of your profit margin, and still sell your major product.
Then it is to support an alternative that could potentially take a very large chunk of your profits away.
Now you may be asking why does Diesel work in Europe then, where over 50% of the vehicles on the road are powered by Diesel? Well, its simple really. WIth the overly socialist thinking of the countries that make up the EUropean Union (read: money hungry tax states), they have regulated their oil producers. Guarenteeing the goverment gets a very large piece of the pie. And infact alot of the major European oil companies, are owned by European Union countries, Namely France (Total/Fina/Elf) and the Netherlands (Royal Dutch/Shell) [both of whom had major oil stakes in Iraq right after Gulf War I, and people wonder why they had a problem with the US going in there and giving it back to the Iraqi people, but thats another story, and a different political discussion]. Anyway, becuase the governments regulate the oil production, the diesel has to come from its producers, and therefor the profit margins are maintained. So diesel works in Europe, becuase there is no chance of Biodiesel ever really taking hold, as long as the various oil producing contries in the European Union have their say about it. Becuase then its just a couple of crazy brits, and a few farmers that get any benefit. Where as here in teh US, the free market, and do it yourself nature of Capitalism, guarentees you nothing, if not the fact that eventually somone else will come along and do it better.
My personal oppinion is that with hybrids being pushed as hard as they are, it only goes to prove that diesel is the better alternative for this country, and they want to try and make sure that the idea of Diesel being better, never gets a foot hold. Becuase if Diesel is found out to be the better option for the typical american citizen, and biodiesel take a major role in the distrobution of the US fuel market. They stand to loose alot of money. And when ExxonMobile is the largest, and most expensive stock out there, the share holders expect profits, and lots of them.
No matter how you choose to look at it the facts still remains... Most americans use the highway, and that means speeds at 60mph and above. I.e. the realm of which hybrid technology means, and does nothing. ANd where Diesels can easily get upwards of 50 MPG, all day long.
In a perfect world, we would all be driving Hydrogen powered cars. It can work for fuel cells for electricity, and for combustion engines as well. The ultimate single fuel, dual powered hybrid that actually truely works in an extremely economicle way.
Only problem is that producing hydrogen is either extremely harmful to the environment, or requires alot of electricity to produce. So its not exactly the best alternative fuel, though the ways in which it can be used, are seconed to none. But it very well could be a viable alternative, especially if nuclear power ever overcomes its smear campaign from environmentalist no-nothings in the 80's, that prevented it from becoming the main power source for the United States. ITs certaintly clean enough, and can produce enough excess electricity, to allow for the production of Hydrogen from water through electrolytic process, seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen. But, i think tis more pipe dream then reality...at least for this country.
Ok, thats plenty to chew on, so ill leave it at that for now.
Last edited:
I agree change won't be instant, but it does HAVE TO happen.
My thought with the toyota type diesel hyrids is they seem perfectly matched electric motor to help with acceleration (where diesels suck) and high efficiency diesel running only at it's optimum speed or off throught a CVT transmission should be able to get some incredibly good MPG in small cars and scale up well to larger vehicles (pickups, vans and SUV's) could have a dramatic effect on overall consumption
Think if you take a small car that gets 30 mpg, and make a hybrid version that gets 45 as a percentage 50% improvment looks great
but a truck getting 12.5 raised to 15 is only 20% improvement
But if you look at gallons used/saved over a typical 15,000 mile annually the pickup makes a much bigger difference as far as total national consumption.
The less efficient the vehicle/home/process is currently ,the more impact improving it will have overall energy consumption.
National energy policy has to/should consider this when directing research and incentive dollars
It doesn't hurt to encourge the 20-30% of small car/already higher mileage to upgrade to super high MPG cars, but if you could get even 10% of the big low mileage users to even upgrade to a slightly better MPG vehicle it might be dollars better spent.
My thought with the toyota type diesel hyrids is they seem perfectly matched electric motor to help with acceleration (where diesels suck) and high efficiency diesel running only at it's optimum speed or off throught a CVT transmission should be able to get some incredibly good MPG in small cars and scale up well to larger vehicles (pickups, vans and SUV's) could have a dramatic effect on overall consumption
Think if you take a small car that gets 30 mpg, and make a hybrid version that gets 45 as a percentage 50% improvment looks great
but a truck getting 12.5 raised to 15 is only 20% improvement
But if you look at gallons used/saved over a typical 15,000 mile annually the pickup makes a much bigger difference as far as total national consumption.
The less efficient the vehicle/home/process is currently ,the more impact improving it will have overall energy consumption.
National energy policy has to/should consider this when directing research and incentive dollars
It doesn't hurt to encourge the 20-30% of small car/already higher mileage to upgrade to super high MPG cars, but if you could get even 10% of the big low mileage users to even upgrade to a slightly better MPG vehicle it might be dollars better spent.
Buck-O said:
I was listening to a national energy analyst on NPR talk about the why of predicted $4 a gallon gas for the west coast this summer, and the host had the same thought.
The analyst (I forget the name, but very famous, and usually right) pointed out that the money is now longer is in having the most supply, but in having barely enough, and driving up prices.
there is currently NO incentive for the long term planning for more production and refining within the US. while there is lots of incentive and NO immediate penalty for shorting the market, due lack of real competition and little/ineffective government control by the white house (could be fastest) the congress( for a longer solution) or the watchdog agencies (lack of pressure and direction from the first 2.)
Buck-O
Coastermaker
One barrel = 19.5 gallons of gasoline, 9 gallons of fuel oil, 4 gallons of jet fuel, and 11 gallons of other products, including lubricants, kerosene, asphalt, and petrochemical feedstocks to make plastics.
Ive seen the same statistical data pushed around on several other sites.
So, total FUEL out of 42 gallons of sweet crude comes out to 32 gallons.
Ive seen the same statistical data pushed around on several other sites.
So, total FUEL out of 42 gallons of sweet crude comes out to 32 gallons.
so I was pretty close on the amount of GAS (what MadMat asked), but didn't allow for fuel oil or jetA.
I am suprized that the Jet fuel is so low, and why it is seperated from kerosene (jet fuel is basically high grade, very clean kerosene)
and it make the fuel cost in Hawaii all the more suspect. (southeastasian crude goes to hawaii where it is refinied for JetA and boiler grade fuel oil as the primary uses, the excess gasoline is than shipped on to the US mainland, wholesaling below the price in Hawaii)
This leaves Hawaii with always having the highest gas prices in the US currently $3.60 and up.
I am suprized that the Jet fuel is so low, and why it is seperated from kerosene (jet fuel is basically high grade, very clean kerosene)
and it make the fuel cost in Hawaii all the more suspect. (southeastasian crude goes to hawaii where it is refinied for JetA and boiler grade fuel oil as the primary uses, the excess gasoline is than shipped on to the US mainland, wholesaling below the price in Hawaii)
This leaves Hawaii with always having the highest gas prices in the US currently $3.60 and up.
madmat
Soup Nazi
I used to live in a refinery town and we were literally surrounded bu refineries on 3 sides and a deep water channel on the fourth. I was talking to a refinery hand one day when he asked me the question I posed here the other day and I was given a much different answer. According to the hand, during the refining process the oil begins to thin and expand and you end up with more than what you started with. His claim was 567 gallons of gasoling to one barrel of crude.
This is in addition to the other products such as kerosine, diesel and jet fuel that are pulled off at other levels.
I dunno if he was full of crap or not. It would make sense that if they were pulling more out of a barrel of crude than a .90 to 1 ratio (which is roughly what the oil industry claims) that they would not advertise the fact but without first hand knowledge I'm not going to judge either way.
BTW kerosine, diesel and jet fuel are all very closely related. Diesel is the lowest grade of the kerosine family, it has more impurities and is considerably oilier than kerosine and jet fuel is very high grade kerosine. I worked in an aircraft refinishing shop and we had kerosine space heaters for keeping us and the freshly painted planes warm and we ran jet fuel routinely in them as it was cheaper to aquire (and easier, this was at an airport) than kerosine and didn't produce as many ninoxious fumes as running diesel in the heaters would.
This is in addition to the other products such as kerosine, diesel and jet fuel that are pulled off at other levels.
I dunno if he was full of crap or not. It would make sense that if they were pulling more out of a barrel of crude than a .90 to 1 ratio (which is roughly what the oil industry claims) that they would not advertise the fact but without first hand knowledge I'm not going to judge either way.
BTW kerosine, diesel and jet fuel are all very closely related. Diesel is the lowest grade of the kerosine family, it has more impurities and is considerably oilier than kerosine and jet fuel is very high grade kerosine. I worked in an aircraft refinishing shop and we had kerosine space heaters for keeping us and the freshly painted planes warm and we ran jet fuel routinely in them as it was cheaper to aquire (and easier, this was at an airport) than kerosine and didn't produce as many ninoxious fumes as running diesel in the heaters would.
Last edited:
madstork91
The One, The Only...
SOmething im sure contributes to the cost however is labor and chemicals added to the gasoline. I guess im happy not to have smog, but if not having it means paying 2x as much for a gallon... also R&D for the gas. I know they can set the prices they want... and it sux, but theres not much i can do as an individual.
(It has also been brought to my attention that there are much mroe efficient way to process crude oil into gas but since the building of new oil refineries is lobbied against constantly in congress we havent had a new one built since the late 70's.)
(It has also been brought to my attention that there are much mroe efficient way to process crude oil into gas but since the building of new oil refineries is lobbied against constantly in congress we havent had a new one built since the late 70's.)
i come from germany and was just wondering how prices are in the u.s. today and found this forum via google. in germany gas prices raised for about 25% during this year and it's discussed to be getting an economic slowdown already. we're having prices of 1,47 € these days - for 1 litre (3,8 litres are approx. 1 gallon). so our prices here are about 4,80 USD per gallon in comparism.
we also have diesel engines, they're quite common because diesel gas (is it also called diesel in the us?) is a bit cheaper and it costs about 3,90 per gallon.
prices are continously rising for about 12 years now, it's also about the period gas doubled it price. for how long are you experiencing the rising of gas prices in the us historically?
cheers
bj
we also have diesel engines, they're quite common because diesel gas (is it also called diesel in the us?) is a bit cheaper and it costs about 3,90 per gallon.
prices are continously rising for about 12 years now, it's also about the period gas doubled it price. for how long are you experiencing the rising of gas prices in the us historically?
cheers
bj