Building an Affordable "Skulltrail" System

M

Mike

Guest
Skulltrail MOSFETs

Anyway, regarding the chips ya could probably slap some Enzotech BMR-C1 or C1L chips on them. Perhaps the same with the mosfets depending on your setup, the L is the low-profile version. These things are expensive but I use them on my watercooled GPU's memory and I'm quite happy with them.
I went a little more extreme :)

Each CPU has two lines of MOSFETs forming an "L". Sooooo, I bought four Koolance MVR-40 waterblocks; two with longer heatplates, two with shorter heatplates.

http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=660
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=659
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?products_id=656

They just arrived today. I hope to get them in my box sometime this weekend. Then I'll really be psyched! Unless of course they don't fix anything, in which case I'll be really bummed about needing to fork out $75 more for a southbridge waterblock :(

Mike
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
Oh man, wow, that's one way to cool them! I want to see that when you're done installing ;-)
 
M

Mike

Guest
Skulltrail MOSFET

Oh man, wow, that's one way to cool them! I want to see that when you're done installing ;-)
Well, I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that I can confirm that the temperature reading was for the MOSFET "area".

Unfortunately, just putting waterblocks on the MOSFETs was not enough. Or at least thermal tape is not efficient enough for the blocks to do their best. There are smaller chips between groupings of MOSFETs which are taller than the MOSFETs themselves. This prevents putting the block directly on top of the targets. The thermal tape adds 1-2mm in height which is just enough clearance to put the block on and have it make contact with the targets.

The waterblocks are marginally warm, indicating that they are taking some of the heat. But, the surrounding chokes and capacitors are still "burn your finger" hot. My measured temperatures initially dropped by about 5C with the waterblocks. Though over time the reading does creap back up to the mid 90's again. At least, this was enough to complete several (as yet unstable) iterations of Intel Burn Test (at a disappointing 4.00 Ghz), whereas without the waterblocks it would always reboot before a single iteration completed. Moving above 4.00 Ghz requires more voltage which immediately causes failure as was the case before the MOSFET waterblocks.

So, I can now try to improve the efficiency of the waterblocks and/or add additional cooling to the surrounding chokes (5 per CPU).

Fortunately, I installed the MOSFET waterblocks in such a way that I do not have to remove the motherboard to change them out :) This took quite a bit of finangling, but the blocks came with a fantastic set of hardware allowing me to get it done. Very impressed with the flexibility of these blocks/hardware/heatplates. As it turned out, I bought the wrong size heatplates. Yet, I was able to make everything fit by mixing and matching brackets.

I will likely custom cut some copper wafers (about 25mm x 16mm x 2mm) to lay over the MOSFETs, then use proper thermal grease between the MOSFETs, wafers and waterblock to get better heat transfer. I expect another 6C +/- 3C improvement by doing this.

Anyway, regarding the chips ya could probably slap some Enzotech BMR-C1 or C1L chips on them. Perhaps the same with the mosfets depending on your setup, the L is the low-profile version. These things are expensive but I use them on my watercooled GPU's memory and I'm quite happy with them.
Additionally, I will take Kouger's advice (a slight variation) and buy some passive sinks for my chokes. I found exactly the right size (10mm x 10mm) and exactly the right number (2 x 5 = 10 units) here:

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/enmofocomu10.html

Just for the hell of it (and since I'm paying yet more shipping anyway), I'll grab smaller sized ones and see if I can sit them on top of the capacitors.

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/enmofocomohe.html

I also switched out the two weaker case fans in favor of two stronger (higher CFM) ones arranged in a wind tunnel front to back across the northern half of the board. The stronger ones had been undervolted and attached to a double radiator. Now they're at full power as case fans and the original, weaker case fans have been moved to the radiator. No measurable difference, but more airflow can't be a bad thing ;)

I'll post a build log somewhere once it's all said and done. My loop is not quite as sexy as it used to be since I've had to add connections for 4 more blocks! All in close proximity, no less, which means for some tall links in order to prevent kinking. The tubing now largely conceals all my expensive waterblocks underneath :(

Oh well, it is just a server after all ;)

Mike
 

Toledo_Speedo

Obliviot
I just got off of the phone with CoolIt and they are hoping to be releasing the replacement for the Pure ST next week. They said it was based of off their Domino line, just an FYI. I am going to have to do something to get my temps down.
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
I gotta say, I'm glad I decided to just upgrade my own PC rather than take advantage of the Skulltrail I have kicking around here. The amount of effort to simply have a stable overclocked PC is a little ridiculous. You should never have to go through THIS much effort, especially for a 4GHz overclock, which isn't at all uncommon for Core 2 Quads.

Too bad you're running into so much trouble man. Talk about a money sink...

Toledo, let us know how well that thing works.
 

Toledo_Speedo

Obliviot
I got my 2nd QX9775 in the mail yesterday and dropped it into my SkullTrail board with another Cooler Master V8 HSF. I hooked everything up and turned it on; fans spun, lights flickered and it died. I pulled the new HSF off and checked the metal backplate and the insulation was torn allowing 2 pins to ground. I insulated it, hooked it up with only one of my GPU's and it booted just fine. I put both my 4870x2's in CrossFire and it wouldn't start. I went back to one GPU and it would boot and die after a minute or two; then I would have to wait 4 or 5 minutes before it would start again. I am assuming my PSU (Turbo Cool 1000W) is shot or is not enough power for this system. It worked fine with my dual E5420's OC'd to 3.21GHz and the 2 4870x2's in CrossFire. Does it make sense that adding a 2nd QX9775 would require that much more power then 2 E5420s or did I puke my board by grounding it out?
 
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Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
Your PSU isn't shot, what sounds like is that the overcurrent, short-circuit protection, or something else is tripping and the PSU is shutting down. My 750W Quad Silencer did this when the motherboard powercycled oddly and the telltale giveaway it is the PSU is because the safety "fuse" doesn't reset until after a set cooldown period. At this point I suggest contacting PC P&C directly to inquire if they agree with this assessment... if they do they will send you an updated model that shouldn't have the problem.

If you are worried its the board, plug the E5420's back into it and try it out. In my opinion it likely didn't harm anything though. Something else might not be making proper contact, or shorting out on the other socket?
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
I agree with Kougar... testing out the E5420's again would be a great idea. Sorry to hear about the trouble man...
 

Toledo_Speedo

Obliviot
I am up and running, I forgot that I had reset the BIOS defaults and C1E & Speedstep were enabled and that was causing the crash. I am currently running @ 3.85GHz; 9.5CPU multiplier x 4.06 FSB on air:
4180_1078856696842_1389009099_30231000_4412376_n.jpg

Running stable but quirky; BSOD every now and then. I think my board is bad or my new 1200W PC P&C might still be underpowered. I have another board but I want to make sure this one is shot before I resort to the back up.
 

Rob Williams

Editor-in-Chief
Staff member
Moderator
It's unbelievable that things are <em>that</em> tight on such a huge motherboard. With those two massive coolers and dual GPUs, there's a severe lack of room for airflow... so it's no wonder thing things might still overheat. An occasional BSOD is still far too many... hopefully you can figure out how to make it stable soon. I assume you are using the most recent BIOS?
 
M

Mike

Guest
Back to the drawing board

Well,

I'm getting nowhere with the MOSFET coolers. I added aluminum risers between the MOSFETs and the waterblock (instead of the tape) and now the total heat dump is too much for my setup (single loop including triple rad + double rad). The CPU's run up to 84C before getting cycled down.

Looks like I'll have to add at least another loop, and/or add another radiator.

Just to put a final end to everything and dance a dance of sweet victory, or to crumple into a heap of financial ruin, I'm seriously considering blowing another few hundred bucks to convert this $%$#$%^ to a triple loop setup:

Loop 1: res1 -> pump1 -> CPU1 -> MOSFET1a -> MOSFET1b -> triple rad1 -> res1
Loop 2: res2 -> pump2 -> CPU2 -> MOSFET2a -> MOSFET2b -> triple rad2 -> res2
Loop 3: res3 -> pump3 -> Southbridge -> FB-DIMM -> Northbridge -> double rad1 -> res3

That means buying two more pumps, a southbridge waterblock, a triple rad/res combo, a standalone res, and tubing to tie it all togeather.

If sanity returns before I'm able to enter my credit card numbers, I may instead just grab the southbridge block, a rad and a pump. Then I'll have two loops as follows:

Loop 1: res1 -> pump1 -> CPU1 -> MOSFET1a -> MOSFET1b -> triple rad1 -> CPU2 -> MOSFET2a -> MOSFET2b -> triple rad2 -> res1
Loop 2: res2 -> pump2 -> Southbridge -> FB-DIMM -> Northbridge -> double rad1 -> res2

My only concern with the two loop system is whether a double rad is enough for the second loop. The FB-DIMMs get very hot, as we all know. I don't know what kind of heat dump the NB and SB bring to the table?

Mike
Mike
 

Kougar

Techgage Staff
Staff member
Jeez... talk about the monster rig from hell. Spending that much on cooling, you almost might as well look at a phase changer or some kind of mach setup? I might just suggest leaving the system at stock or a light overclock... stock settings would certainly help drop temps on the power circuitry like you wouldn't believe, and it'd save you from dumping more cash into your rig.

New loops will drop your temps, but I don't think you're going to see a huge improvement. 4Ghz is already pushing it and anything above that you'll be paying for inch by inch. For what my opinion's worth, there's a point where the overclock isn't worth it.

I don't recall what pump you are using, but constriction from the mosfet blocks and extra blocks in your loop affecting the flow rate might be contributing to the high temps. Still, there is only so much watercooling can do and I don't think you're going to eke much more out of those CPUs by giving each a dedicated loop.

I use a pretty simple loop with the best WC parts, but even my CPU and GPU are running pretty warm under full loads. LinX can push RealTemp to 80C after a few hours of LinX load. Silicon will exhibit thermal runaway at extreme overclocking, and the current load on the mosfets will increase heavily in suit. There's just a point where the silicon will generate to much heat to quickly for the water block to make a difference.
 

Merlin

The Tech Wizard
Looks like I'll have to add at least another loop, and/or add another radiator.

Just to put a final end to everything and dance a dance of sweet victory, or to crumple into a heap of financial ruin, I'm seriously considering blowing another few hundred bucks to convert this $%$#$%^ to a triple loop setup:

That means buying two more pumps, a southbridge waterblock, a triple rad/res combo, a standalone res, and tubing to tie it all togeather.

If sanity returns before I'm able to enter my credit card numbers, I may instead just grab the southbridge block, a rad and a pump. Then I'll have two loops as follows:

My only concern with the two loop system is whether a double rad is enough for the second loop. The FB-DIMMs get very hot, as we all know. I don't know what kind of heat dump the NB and SB bring to the table?

Mike

My GOD, it's going to look like "Men in Black II " with all that water cooling
 

Toledo_Speedo

Obliviot
Wow Mike, that sucks; it seems no matter what you do to try and cool this board it will find a way to sabotage your efforts. I just found a major flaw using a 775 Heatsink on a 771 socket:
4180_1080543899021_1389009099_30236548_5996364_n.jpg


Those two SM Capacitors were crushed by my CM V8's metal backplates; which I'm guessing is causing the random BSOD's. Glad I have a back up board and a work around for the Back Plate; if I can get 3.85GHz stable I'm done! I can't see cooling both CPUs & MOSFETs using just one loop even with 2 rads! The 3 Loop system would be the way 2 go but what a pain in the ass!
 
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Toledo_Speedo

Obliviot
I put my new board together today and it worked fine, those Capacitors were the problem. I was able to boot and run 3DMark06 @ 4.2GHz, I just missed 25,000 3DMarks because my GPU's started to throttle during the last 2 tests. I ordered a longer CrossFire cable so I can space my cards out on the board and with the better airflow I should be able to break 25k on air. Prime 95 runs fine @ 3.8GHz but that is all the higher I can get it to run stable. I am going to pull the North Bridge Heatsink, put on some Artic silver and re-seat it along with the CPU HSFs. I might be able to pull off 4.0Ghz on air if I get lucky....
 

Hawke

Obliviot
Those two SM Capacitors were crushed by my CM V8's metal backplates; which I'm guessing is causing the random BSOD's. Glad I have a back up board and a work around for the Back Plate; if I can get 3.85GHz stable I'm done! I can't see cooling both CPUs & MOSFETs using just one loop even with 2 rads! The 3 Loop system would be the way 2 go but what a pain in the ass!
I got backplates for my CPU fan, which CPU was the capacitors? 0 or 1?

The backplate on my mobo is on CPU0 and I have had no problem whatsoever, I am a bit concerned on getting a HSF cbackplate to replace those cheap and dirty pushpins on CPU1 and what did you do to get around your problem with the backplate and capacitors?
 

Toledo_Speedo

Obliviot
Both 0 & 1 have them, the CoolerMaster V8's have a large metal backlate that just crushed both sets of capacitors. I never had a problem with the smaller plastic baclplates. CM has plastic washers you can use instead of the backplate, I put those on the new board and they held fine.
 

Hawke

Obliviot
Both 0 & 1 have them, the CoolerMaster V8's have a large metal backlate that just crushed both sets of capacitors. I never had a problem with the smaller plastic baclplates. CM has plastic washers you can use instead of the backplate, I put those on the new board and they held fine.

I got one metal backplate from Thermalright called Bolt Thrus (said to fit only Thermalright heatsinks, but it fitted my Akasa HSF), I don't think it crushed anything, I have had no trouble yet apart from the rare occasion that when the computer gets switched on, the screen remains black, fans at full until the reset button gets pressed and everything is fine although this has happend before I replaced the plastic pushpins.

I replaced the plastic pushpins with the bolt-thru kit a long time ago, I am actually writing this on the Skulltrail computer (infact it is my main PC at home)
 

Hawke

Obliviot
What kind of overclock are you running? I could run mine on stock settings, but any OC would fail.

I have not overclocked mine yet - at the moment, the weather is very hot here in Britain (Oddly I am living in the most rainy place in Britain, which is Wales BTW) and my CPU's are having temps of 45-48C, ususally they are around the 39-44C mark when the weather is cooler.

At the moment, I am quite concerned as SpeedFan is reporting that "Remote 2" (chip is ADT-7490) is 80C, which has got me a bit worried...

I may get liquid cooling soon but I am a bit concerned about any leeks that may occur, I learnt about a special Skulltrail edition of a water cooler that looks like it will fit in my modded ATX to eATX case, but (a) it is very expensive and (b) I cannot find it in the UK.

Any reccomendation of a liquid cooling solution that is not too big and won't brake the bank?

EDIT*
As night has drawn in (it is not 1:40AM, yes I know I should be in bed), the temps have come down, the CPU is having a minimum of 44C

That "Remote 2" on SpeedFan I am suspecting the sensors are near the FB-DIMMS, I think I read somewhere that ADT-7490 chips are fan control chips - there are fan connectors under and above the FB-DIMM slots, I think at the mo I shall add fans on the DIMMS - and since it is now night time, the "remote 2" sensor on SpeedFan is registering 70C
 
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