Apple Announces OS X 10.7 'Lion'

[Rob Williams]

Apple introduced a lot of software at its ongoing WWDC conference that gives fans reason to be excited, but for desktop users, it's OS X Lion that's proven to be the most interesting. Like Snow Leopard, Lion's upgrade price is set to $29.99, and as such, the OS is more of an upgrade that's stuck in the middle of being a service pack and a full-blown OS release. For the price, though, there could be a couple of reasons worth upgrading.

Read the rest of our post and then discuss it here!

 

[MacMan]

" Like Snow Leopard, Lion's upgrade price is set to $29.99, and as such, the OS is more of an upgrade that's stuck in the middle of being a service pack and a full-blown OS release."

Trust me, its a major upgrade. After all, it boasts over 3,000 new features! The low price is partly due to the fact that it no longer comes on in a CD, or box sets.

Also, did you not know that the client version also includes, absolutely FREE, OS X Server! Yes, if your a power user you can freely download the included upgrade, replacing the client version with OS X Server!

Remember: Apple not only preaches its slogan "Think Different", but they actually practices it as ell!

CORRECTION: Make that 250 new features; 3,000 plus new API''s!

http://ca.gizmodo.com/5809100/the-best-of-the-240-unsung-features-in-os-x-lionOS X Server

 

[Rob Williams]

Trust me, its a major upgrade. After all, it boasts over 3,000 new features! The low price is partly due to the fact that it no longer comes on in a CD, or box sets.

Trust me, the lack of printed media and a box doesn't remove $100+ from the price of an OS. Those things cost cents per unit to produce and ship to retail.

Also, did you not know that the client version also includes, absolutely FREE, OS X Server! Yes, if your a power user you can freely download the included upgrade, replacing the client version with OS X Server!

Also untrue. For OS X Lion Server, Snow Leopard Server is required as a pre-requisite.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/how-to-buy/

"You’ll need Snow Leopard Server v10.6.6 or later to purchase Lion and Lion Server from the Mac App Store. If you have Snow Leopard Server, click the Apple icon and choose Software Update to install the latest version."

Snow Leopard Server is $499, meaning that Lion Server will require that purchase and then a $50 upgrade of Lion.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC588Z/A?mco=MTY3ODQ5OTY

You quoted me where I said that this was a cross between a service pack and a full-blown OS, and that remains to be true. Lion is not a full-blown OS. It looks no different, has a couple of aesthetic features piled in, includes upgraded applications that most would assume to be free on other OSes (Microsoft doesn't charge you to upgrade Windows Media Player, Windows Mail, et cetera), and the fact that the computer won't even need to be rebooted after an install? That's a patch, not an entirely new OS.

The fact that the computer doesn't need to be rebooted means that not even the OS kernel has been touched, else it'd have to be rebooted in order for modules to be reloaded (there are no hot-swapping of modules while integral hardware is in use).

 

[MacMan]

Straight from the horse's mouth...

The fact that the computer doesn't need to be rebooted means that not even the OS kernel has been touched, else it'd have to be rebooted in order for modules to be reloaded (there are no hot-swapping of modules while integral hardware is in use).[/QUOTE]


I just got off the phone with an Apple software tech person, the fact that a computer doesn't have to be rebooted might be true normally, but as he stated: OS X Lion contains over 250 new features; over 3,000 new API's, and weighs in at a little over 4GBs, and according to this Apple tech guy, "If that's just a patch and not a major OS upgrade, then I don't-know-what-in-hell it is?"

As far as LIon goes, it contains a separate restore mini OS that doesn't require a full reboot when upgrading future versions of Lion, or when reinstalling Lion for what ever reason. Upgrading directly from Leopard or Snow Leopard, however, DOES require a full-reboot!

But, then again, what in hell would an Apple Genius know about Apple software? )

 

[Rob Williams]

I can't help but feel like battling a Mac fan is more useless than explaining to a child why candy rots your teeth, but here goes.

I just got off the phone with an Apple software tech person

Would you expect anything less? Would you go to a Ferrari salesman and expect him to be truthful about the product, and mention that 1/1,000 cars will catch on fire if a certain variables are met? Of course not. People at Apple, sales person or tech support, are not going to downplay anything that their company offers. If they did, they wouldn't be in a job too long.

As far as LIon goes, it contains a separate restore mini OS that doesn't require a full reboot when upgrading future versions of Lion, or when reinstalling Lion for what ever reason.

What's the #1 reason Mac OS X would need to be reinstalled? Because of a major crash? That's not too common. Because someone just wants to reinstall it? Also not common, but after a year or so, it's understandable. Hard drive crash? BINGO! Guess where that Lion installer goes in the event of that happening?

Upgrading directly from Leopard or Snow Leopard, however, DOES require a full-reboot!

There's a reason for that. Snow Leopard was not a small upgrade... about 90% of the entire OS was either written from scratch or tweaked. That is not a small change. You couldn't make a change that's equivalent to changing out the engine in a car and expect to not reboot afterwards. Lion? It's a monolithic patch, hence there's no need to reboot.

Until you understand how the underlying architecture of an OS works, I don't recommend arguing about this.

But, then again, what in hell would an Apple Genius know about Apple software? )

At the same time, people at Best Buy are the go-to people for learning about computer hardware, architecture and software!

Honestly, what you just said there reminds me of people who don't know a thing about cars, but go to a used car lot and believe everything the salesman tells them.

Feel free to call up one of these 'Geniuses' again and quiz them on whether or not the OS kernel itself has been affected, or if integral OS modules were updated. The answer is: no. If there were significant updates like this, the computer would need to be rebooted, it's that simple. Please don't make me bring in Brett, our resident Mac fanboi and hacker extraordinaire, to explain this in greater detail.

The fact that the OS does not need to be rebooted implies that this is not a new OS... it's an upgrade. It's no different than if I were to run the upgrade program for Thunderbird, Firefox, Chrome or what-have-you. That doesn't downplay this $30 upgrade, because it still offers a lot. But to call it a full-blown OS is a little asinine.

 

[Glider]

Being a Linux geinus, I must say Rob is right...

And as you know, Mac OS and Linux are similiar, right?

NINJA EDIT: The Brett is a lie!

 

[MacMan]

I did a Google search for OS X Lion and found well over 100 sites that list it as A MAJOR OS UPGRADE. This includes major sites such AnnanTech, to Linux sites and smaller sites, including some really good ones, that I've never even heard of before.

One of the MAJOR FEATURES of LION, showing how much of major upgrade it is, is that it has a type of Google Chrome OS mode, one that allows you to 'Start in Safari Only OS Mode', allowing you to run Lion simply as browser type OS, anonymously and quickly.

I'm not really crazy about Google's innovative Chrome OS, but it does have its benefits --- it's easy on the battery, boots lickly-split, etc. But, on the other hand, with Lion OS X you get all of the benefits of Chrome OS, one that could easily run Web Apps, as well as the more traditional OS apps.... the choice is yours but only in OS X Lion!


http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/12/mac-os-x-lion-can-run-in-chrome-os-like-browser-only-mode/

 

[Glider]

I did a Google search for OS X Lion and found well over 100 sites that list it as A MAJOR OS UPGRADE. This includes major sites such AnnanTech, to Linux sites and smaller sites, including some really good ones, that I've never even heard of before.

Then it must be true! If over 100 websites say its a major upgrade, who are we to say it isn't? What do we know about kernel modules and such... Oh wait, I do know something about it, having written and hacked a few of them...

One of the MAJOR FEATURES of LION, showing how much of major upgrade it is, is that it has a type of Google Chrome OS mode, one that allows you to 'Start in Safari Only OS Mode', allowing you to run Lion simply as browser type OS, anonymously and quickly.

Cool, they included a bootloader, nice job Apple, Linux, and even Windows, has had that for years...

I'm not really crazy about Google's innovative Chrome OS, but it does have its benefits --- it's easy on the battery, boots lickly-split, etc. But, on the other hand, with Lion OS X you get all of the benefits of Chrome OS, one that could easily run Web Apps, as well as the more traditional OS apps.... the choice is yours but only in OS X Lion!

Serious? Anyone can install Chrome OS next to the regular one and make a bootloader entry... If you are happy about that, then I want to sell you an useless app I made, which does absolutely nothing, but looks ok, for a lot of money... Oh wait, Apple already does that for you... ::sigh::

 

[Rob Williams]

I did a Google search for OS X Lion and found well over 100 sites that list it as A MAJOR OS UPGRADE. This includes major sites such AnnanTech, to Linux sites and smaller sites, including some really good ones, that I've never even heard of before.

Your logic escapes me. I did the same Google search, and the articles that stated Lion as being a 'major' upgrade ripped the word right out of Apple's press release. At the same time, within the first two search results were forum threads where people stated that it was not a major upgrade. As Glider said, it doesn't matter who calls it "major" or how many call it "major"... it's not major. There's a lot more to a real "major" release than its version number. Google Chrome increases its major version number four times a year - does that mean each release is major? We'll even soon be seeing the Linux kernel moving from 2.6.39 to 3.0.0, and guess what? It's not a major upgrade!

I searched through that single article you mentioned, at AnandTech. Nowhere is the word "major" uttered, nor is there any sort of insinuation about it being an all-important "must upgrade" release.

There's only so much time I can waste to "defending" what I wrote in a post, so I think I'm done here. You have in this thread stated numerous things as fact, all of which I've debunked, and continue to claim that the OS is a "major" upgrade or full-blown OS release when no one else with any credibility can state the same. People who call it major are calling it major because Apple calls it major, while the mechanics of it all reveal that it's far from being major.

 

[MacMan]

Last words, from a Linux site, that says that a major OS upgrade is a lot more than just the kernel,which you seem to imply it is:

http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/html/various-parts.html

PA> You said OS Snow Leopard was a major release because of its 90% rewrite of the kernel, well a lot of people, like Paul Turrot, said that it was nothing more than a 'service pack'. Whom is one to believe? You told me that Dan, the software code reviewer at Apple that I spoke with on the phone doesn't count.... because he works at ....... Apple? Apparently the biggest tech company in the world, Apple, is now so powerful that it can simply dictate whatever it wants other people to say, no matter who they are?

This apparently means, that based on your logic: if Linux World says something about Linux it can't possibly count or be ture, because it's a Linux site! After all, if Dan's opinion is worthless because he works for Apple, then that must mean that if someone, like Linux World, writes something about Linux then it can't possibly be true because what in hell would a Linux site know anything about Linux, just as a software coder at Apple can't possibly know anything about Apple's 100% certified Unix OS.

 

[Rob Williams]

I don't care if Apple, Paul Thurrott, an Apple site, a Linux site, Duke Nukem or Jesus calls Lion a "major" release. It's not. I don't need to be "told" what's major; I can decide on my own.

You said OS Snow Leopard was a major release because of its 90% rewrite of the kernel, well a lot of people, like Paul Turrot, said that it was nothing more than a 'service pack'.

From an end-user perspective, Snow Leopard did feel like a 'service pack'. The bulk of that release had to do with 90% of the entire OS being rewritten. Apple essentially took the virtual engine out of the OS, spent months reworking it, and then put it back in. That is major. A couple of new UI features and upgraded applications is not major.

If Apple was accurate regarding that 90% figure, then it would have taken them far more accumulative hours to code the changes in Snow Leopard than it did Lion.

"Major" in itself is a word that seems to no longer have the same impact it should have, but either way, if you believe Lion is a major upgrade, that's no problem with me. Why you have to defend it to the death is truly beyond me.

Whom is one to believe?

It depends on whether you want to be fed what to believe or have an open mind and be willing to see through the bullshit. For the latter, a great choice is Techgage.com.

(Thanks for setting me up for that!)

I can't imagine how this conversation would have turned out if I had put Lion in a poor light in the news post...