Universe

[GFreeman]

As a kid I have always been interested in the Universe. I'm the kind of person that likes to up at the sky. Some like to look more down the Earth. I remember when I was about 10 years old I used to have this exercise book where I kept track about theories about discoveries about that subject. Now I am religious, in fact I am a Christian, and I believe in Creation. Life circumstances out here seem so special and unique that I believe there was a creator.

My dream was to become an astronaut as well, which sounds not very realistic LOL! Instead I have done a study about computers and software. Well I am liking what I'm doing so that's fine

Where do you guys believe in, creation or evolution, or maybe a little of both?

Lately I've been following a series about the Universe which is very interesting. It's called the Universe series. Here's their website: http://www.history.com/shows/the-universe
I have also watched episodes of a documentary called Cosmos. That is kinda old, but interesting to watch I must say. Anways, I thought it was cool to share my thoughts. I was wondering what your interests are about this subject.

 

[Kayden]

I would say that I am Christian but I see it as is much broader then that. I see God as the Universe not as a context of a Man, as the Bible tries describe. The act of doing a good deed should not be limited to just to one day a week and then doing what ever we want for the rest of it, it must be found every day in all of what we do because there is a bit of God or the Universe in everything we do and every one we interact with, so actions shouldn't just be convenient it should always be with purpose and with good intentions. I will not say that every intention turns out to be the right one but as long as we try to do the best we can with the information that we have, then that's all we can do. We will make mistakes, we will stumble, we are human, we are not infallible.

I heard a story once and I will pass it along here, look it up if you wish but mysteries once solved often lose their wonder don't they?

If I take a lamp and shine toward the wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. Too often we assume the light on the wall is God, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing. What we perceive as God is the by-product of our search for God. It may simply be an appreciation of the light, pure and unblemished. Not understanding that it comes from us, sometimes, we stand in front of the light and assume we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do. Or we turn to look at our shadow and assume all is darkness. If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose — which is use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty and all it flaws, and in so doing, better understand the world around us.

That's just a little insight into my mind tonight. I want to see where you go with this.

 

[marfig]

Where do you guys believe in, creation or evolution, or maybe a little of both?

I'm a profound atheist. You could almost say that is my religion. But only almost, because atheism is by the very definition a refusal of Belief.

Now I don't confuse atheism with agnosticism, which I consider just a disguise of a belief. Atheism simply holds there are no God or Gods (or supernatural forces for a broader view), whereas agnosticism holds that we can't prove or disprove their existence.

Through the years I moved from an agnostic to a atheist as I slowly left myself be immersed on the details of scientific thought, a certain dose of pragmatic thought, philosophy in general, but particularly the thought that an impossible to verify hypothesis is a false scientific hypothesis by definition and should never support a scientific theory. Why is the scientific method so important, you mask ask? Because Belief should exist only from scientifically demonstrable hypotheses. I can believe there's a nuclear force, or that gravity holds the planets together, even if later my belief becomes shattered by new findings. But I can't believe there are ghosts, that aliens make circles in crops, that Gods exist, until an interested party transforms these false propositions into verifiable hypothesis that can at the very least hold a mechanism for testing and verification.

But my atheism didn't ever cloud my mind from Religion. I hold it as the most significant cultural characteristic of our species. Our very history is, for the biggest part, defined or shaped by it. Religion, as the cultural and social phenomena I understand it to be, is something I'm deeply interested in and curious about -- being a lover as I am of History. I'm also deeply interested in trying to understand the mental processes behind Faith.

Anways, I thought it was cool to share my thoughts. I was wondering what your interests are about this subject.

It's the ultimate frontier of knowledge. Like you, I always harbored a deep interest about the space beyond. I can spend an inordinate amount of time looking at stars, imagining sights, worlds, cultures, but also forces, cosmological events and today's theories being put to practice, Cosmology is today the most exciting science I can think about and my biggest regret is that I chose to exist in a period of mankind history when the exploration of space is still very embryonic. Space is the new Ocean to be explored (after we actually finish exploring our real oceans, that is). Not being there when we start finally setting sail makes me sad sometimes. In compensation, Cosmology and Astronomy are two deeply interesting sciences that give me a little of that taste of the Explorer and Navigator.

 

[Doomsday]

May the Force be with us All!!

 

[GFreeman]

I would say that I am Christian but I see it as is much broader then that. I see God as the Universe not as a context of a Man, as the Bible tries describe. The act of doing a good deed should not be limited to just to one day a week and then doing what ever we want for the rest of it, it must be found every day in all of what we do because there is a bit of God or the Universe in everything we do and every one we interact with, so actions shouldn't just be convenient it should always be with purpose and with good intentions. I will not say that every intention turns out to be the right one but as long as we try to do the best we can with the information that we have, then that's all we can do. We will make mistakes, we will stumble, we are human, we are not infallible.

Well I guess we all have a different understanding of faith and that is fine Corinthians chapter 13 is of my favourite chapters in the Bible. It's passages like these that move me:

13:4 Love is patient and is kind; love doesn’t envy. Love doesn’t brag, is not proud,

13:5 doesn’t behave itself inappropriately, doesn’t seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil;

13:6 doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

13:13 But now faith, hope, and love remain–these three. The greatest of these is love.

I think trying to be there for each other and having a relationship with God is that what matters in Christianity. One thing I find hard is thinking in good and bad. I don't think it's intended that black and white as often people interpret it. I'm someone who is a perfectionist, so this is one of the elements about faith that I find a little hard. I'm more sensitive then realistic, which isn't always that handy lol! The focus often is on sin, but I believe that is not the way things are intended. I think a positive focus is important. I believe you go from the dark to the light when letting Jesus in your heart. It's something that happened to me when I was a kid when I was praying. I felt this warm intense love come over me. Something I can't really explain but has happened to me.

If I think about how complex a human body is.. I've read if you connect all your veins in your body in one line, you can circle the earth three and a half times.. If you think about the Earth being just the right distance from the Sun. If the green house effect wasn't there, life circumstances wouldn't be that ideal.. If we had no moon there wouldn't be a stable climat and life as we know it. If we didn't have Jupiter.. the vacuum-cleaner of the universe.. Earth probably would have been a much more violent place to comets and such. The orbits in our solar system are circular.. That is quite unique and isn't found in other solar systems I believe. Or it might be now, but it's quite rare. Of of these elements together, the variables have to be just right..

If I think about it logically it's like putting a car together in a factory. I don't believe something that organized just happens with a big bang (explosion) if you like There's a designer behind if with an idea. This might not be the perfect example, but it's something I keep in my head.

Bottom line: There are things that amaze me, and convince me that there is a creator.

Through the years I moved from an agnostic to a atheist as I slowly left myself be immersed on the details of scientific thought, a certain dose of pragmatic thought, philosophy in general, but particularly the thought that an impossible to verify hypothesis is a false scientific hypothesis by definition and should never support a scientific theory. Why is the scientific method so important, you mask ask? Because Belief should exist only from scientifically demonstrable hypotheses. I can believe there's a nuclear force, or that gravity holds the planets together, even if later my belief becomes shattered by new findings. But I can't believe there are ghosts, that aliens make circles in crops, that Gods exist, until an interested party transforms these false propositions into verifiable hypothesis that can at the very least hold a mechanism for testing and verification.

I do believe that there are things that go beyond human imagination. We are very smart and developed a lot of knowledge over the years that's for sure. But I don't think humans don't have the capability to see the entire picture and just understand all elements and their connection totally, including life questions about the purpose of life. I believe God is the only one who can. Believe can't be proved that's what it's believe for.

Part of evolution is science, but the evolution theory itself is religion, just like Christianity is if you ask me. It's a theory that hasn't been based entirely on science. At least that is my point of view.

It remains that it all is very interesting to discuss and watch and read about subjects like these if you ask me I find it interesting to share thoughts with you all.

 

[OriginalJoeCool]

I don't subscribe to any organized religion, mainly because people twist religion to suit their purposes.

I'm also very interested in astronomy and the universe. I love science fiction like Star Trek, Frank Herbert (Dune series, etc), etc. The universe or multiverse is practically infinite I guess so who knows how many "Earths" there are out there! Infinity is a lot of space!

 

[GFreeman]

I don't subscribe to any organized religion, mainly because people twist religion to suit their purposes.

I'm also very interested in astronomy and the universe. I love science fiction like Star Trek, Frank Herbert (Dune series, etc), etc. The universe or multiverse is practically infinite I guess so who knows how many "Earths" there are out there! Infinity is a lot of space!

I don't agree. Well I think people have a different understanding of religion and focus to elements which they find important. I think that has to do with focussing on our talents and how we can use them as well. Although people explain things in different ways and insights, the basics of Christianity are the same, really. It's is a philosophical, complex and interesting subject as I see it.

Subjects like these bring an interesting discussion People talk from their point of view which isn't always factual, but that's fine. I'm not going to say I'm right, but it's how I see it

 

[GFreeman]

I don't subscribe to any organized religion, mainly because people twist religion to suit their purposes.

I'm also very interested in astronomy and the universe. I love science fiction like Star Trek, Frank Herbert (Dune series, etc), etc. The universe or multiverse is practically infinite I guess so who knows how many "Earths" there are out there! Infinity is a lot of space!

They invented as nice symbol for infinity I don't believe there are other Earths (Earth seems so special and unique), but there might be something that is Earth-like.. Who knows. It's all very interesting!

 

[marfig]

The universe or multiverse is practically infinite I guess so who knows how many "Earths" there are out there! Infinity is a lot of space!

Assuming it is indeed infinite, that would be the most incredible finding. In an infinite universe, there's an infinite history where everything that can happen, will eventually happen. There being many earths would be just the start. On one of these earths, I published The Republic in its original in Umbundu with a grammatical error on page 137, line 14. On another you ruled the ruled the entire planet as a benign dictator after having defeated Napolean in the 23th Century.

A current -- serious -- remark is that in an infinite universe somewhere a monkey will write, or has already wrote, Hamlet by just hitting randomly the keys on a typewriter.

 

[Kougar]

What an intriguing thread, thanks for starting it GFreeman! I had to wait until I had some time to actually sit down and read through, then write a respectable reply.

History Channel's The Universe was the start of my fascination with Cosmology and Astronomy... it took things out of the sci-fi realm and made them a reality, and builds on the latest developments in scientific knowledge, which never ceases to be amazing.... Our understanding of Astronomy has changed so drastically over the last 10 years alone that even the textbook I used in college was out of date or even wrong on many theories.

Now, if you want to take things up one more level entirely, I would suggest you watch the first season of Morgan Freeman's Through the Wormhole series (The Science Channel). The series should feel very familiar given you've watched The Universe, much of the latest discoveries and facts will be mentioned or become the basis for further discussion. Through the Wormhole will make you stop and think though, it's a bit more in depth and even more thought provoking than than The Universe was, which is saying something!

Through the Wormhole just started its second season with this one. Watch it in HD elsewhere if possible, it's a full HD quality series with some good CGI (makes The Universe look like 1999-era CGI in quality.. ) Here's the episode list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Wormhole

Ironically, the second episode deals with the increasing expansion of the universe. The Universe dedicated a whole episode to it too. That's been scientifically proven, so if the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, I don't think it can be infinite at the same time.

If I think about how complex a human body is.. I've read if you connect all your veins in your body in one line, you can circle the earth three and a half times.. If you think about the Earth being just the right distance from the Sun. If the green house effect wasn't there, life circumstances wouldn't be that ideal.. If we had no moon there wouldn't be a stable climat and life as we know it. If we didn't have Jupiter.. the vacuum-cleaner of the universe.. Earth probably would have been a much more violent place to comets and such. The orbits in our solar system are circular.. That is quite unique and isn't found in other solar systems I believe. Or it might be now, but it's quite rare. Of of these elements together, the variables have to be just right..

Let me pose a counter-thought to that. Currently the belief is that there are over 400 billion stars in only OUR galaxy. And 400 Billion more galaxies out there. So, 400 billion * 400 billion is a number I can't wrap my head around... but the odds of earth-like systems developing are pretty good in my opinion, in that context. (The LOWEST numbers I've seen are 200 Billion * 200 Billion, I'm not sure it even matters, really...)

Presently we only have the technology to discover hot Jupiter sized planets, and dense planets around 2.5-5x the size of Earth is just now becoming the reality. We're even starting to realize that the Goldilocks zone isn't a universal constant... it changes depending on the type of star and planet in question. Over 560 planets have been located despite these limitations, and more are found every year. We've found a large number of solar systems with a number of planets in them too, showing it's not a rare thing.

So, lets try another thought experiment to blow everyone's minds: 400 Billion Galaxies * 400 Billion Suns * average number of planets per sun * average number of moons per system.

My point is, it's not just planets that can sustain life. Water exists in a solid, liquid, and gas forms naturally on this planet. Saturn's moon Titan was proven to have Methane that exists as a solid, a liquid, and a gas. Titan actually has methane lakes, methane rain, snow, and ice as active weather patterns. It's atmospheric density is the closest approximation to ours in our solar system, in fact it is 4.5x more dense than Earth's at sea level. And this is possible because of Saturn's heating of the moon, not because of some Goldilocks zone.

So regardless of how infinitesimally small the chance of all the factors coming together perfectly might be, the end number from the above equation is just so large that I think the true scope of earth-like life out in the universe is truly huge. And that's not even considering non earth-like life!

 

[Kougar]

(I cut and and moved the specific part of my post on religion to below given the huge freaking wall of text I wrote on a much more pleasant topic above. Feel free to skip over this if religious discussion isn't something you want to get into. Again these are my personal thoughts, opinions, and views)



As for my thoughts on religion... that's a complicated answer, but when isn't it I guess. Long story short, I started a Christian high school as a Christian, and ended college without that belief. I don't have a concrete belief, as nothing I've found is an exact fit for my current beliefs. However, the Orch-OR model proposed by Sir Roger Penrose & Stuat Hameroff in the above Through the Wormhole episode does fit with what I believe, and I'll incorporate that one until I find anything better. I believe in karma and I believe there is something more to it out there, as some things and miracles that I hear about with such frequency just cannot be explained as pure chance, that much I believe.

But my views on Christianity were permanently marred after a good history lesson from a few different classes... Christianity, as much good as it does in this world and for all the hope and security it gives the true believers, has also been just a tool for power and still is everywhere I look. I found it particularly interesting how the Catholic Church selectively chose which books to include and which to throw out, and how often even the same passages in the books would be carefully edited and re-edited to align with the current doctrine of the Church as that changed up until the dark ages.The Old Testament started out as just a book of social mores for the times it was written, and it has become something else entirely today.

This went far beyond simple translations changing an odd word here or meaning there. It wasn't just power either, it was money brought in from indulgences... they used the faith in every possible way to benefit themselves. I see the same behavior in many US churches & especially the "megachurches" found in the Bible Belt today.

Again as I pointed out I do believe Christianity has been a great force for good, of unimaginable charity, and provides both a source of hope and security for countless millions. But I firmly believe the underlying faith is nothing like what the real person that was Christ taught during his lifetime, it was borrowed then convoluted into a tool that is still being shaped today for whomever wishes to use it. To be equally fair, the start of the Muslim faith with Muhammad is a good example of how a message can become so severely distorted. I haven't read it, but I've heard more than a few Muslims state that the Qur’an doesn't preach violence, hatred, and intolerance. Yet here we are today, first the Crusades... now the Jihad.

Obviously I hold a jaded view of religion, I won't deny it. There are so many religions that preach there is only one true way and that other religions are false, that picking any single one seems almost silly to me now. So I don't follow any religion, but I am not an atheist nor even an agnostic or a deist.

 

[Doomsday]

A very good lecture about Similarities b/w Christianity and Islam!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CfVRTj9tv0

And something about Islam and Terrorism!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaQZ8XBOZ2I&feature=related

 

[GFreeman]

As for my thoughts on religion... that's a complicated answer, but when isn't it I guess. Long story short, I started a Christian high school as a Christian, and ended college without that belief. I don't have a concrete belief, as nothing I've found is an exact fit for my current beliefs. However, the Orch-OR model proposed by Sir Roger Penrose & Stuat Hameroff in the above Through the Wormhole episode does fit with what I believe, and I'll incorporate that one until I find anything better. I believe in karma and I believe there is something more to it out there, as some things and miracles that I hear about with such frequency just cannot be explained as pure chance, that much I believe.

But my views on Christianity were permanently marred after a good history lesson from a few different classes... Christianity, as much good as it does in this world and for all the hope and security it gives the true believers, has also been just a tool for power and still is everywhere I look. I found it particularly interesting how the Catholic Church selectively chose which books to include and which to throw out, and how often even the same passages in the books would be carefully edited and re-edited to align with the current doctrine of the Church as that changed up until the dark ages.The Old Testament started out as just a book of social mores for the times it was written, and it has become something else entirely today.

Yes, unfortunately religion is used as well in times of war.. I don't like to attack in God's name, to keep us safe in hard times that's something else I think. When power and wealth gets too much to our human heads, things start getting wrong I think.

Religion is a very broad and complicated subject in fact. I know the bible books have indeed been selected by church fathers. There even were a lot more books that are in the Bible now today. Still I believe it's about the message and the stories in there that Bible writings try to teach us.
I remember having a discussion with my uncle about the gospel of Judas. He believed that this book and even the evolution theory isn't biblical, but from the anti Christ. I am a Christian and I believe, but I'm a open minded person. I don't share my uncles opinion. I find that black and white thinking. It's that element that I have a little trouble with. Well believe comes with a little struggle here and then.

The gospel of Judas tells a way different message then the Bible does. In that gospel Judas is the closest to Jesus in fact.

Yes the interpretation of people changes stories over time, that is true. But still I hold on to the basics of the Biblical message and that's what I believe. I don't know it for sure, but I believe. It's faith it's not something we see with the eye. Did it ever occur to you we only see maybe a few percent what's out there? The rest we don't see like television and radio waves for example.

I believe and hope there's more then just being here as a coincidence. One thing is for sure I think - that there's more to life then we know. And more then human mind can possibly comprehend.

As a kid I have been involved in an accident three times. It's a miracle I'm still alive in fact - with no injury or whatsoever. I believe there was someone watching over me.

 

[GFreeman]

What an intriguing thread, thanks for starting it GFreeman! I had to wait until I had some time to actually sit down and read through, then write a respectable reply.

History Channel's The Universe was the start of my fascination with Cosmology and Astronomy... it took things out of the sci-fi realm and made them a reality, and builds on the latest developments in scientific knowledge, which never ceases to be amazing.... Our understanding of Astronomy has changed so drastically over the last 10 years alone that even the textbook I used in college was out of date or even wrong on many theories.

Now, if you want to take things up one more level entirely, I would suggest you watch the first season of Morgan Freeman's Through the Wormhole series (The Science Channel). The series should feel very familiar given you've watched The Universe, much of the latest discoveries and facts will be mentioned or become the basis for further discussion. Through the Wormhole will make you stop and think though, it's a bit more in depth and even more thought provoking than than The Universe was, which is saying something!

Through the Wormhole just started its second season with this one. Watch it in HD elsewhere if possible, it's a full HD quality series with some good CGI (makes The Universe look like 1999-era CGI in quality.. ) Here's the episode list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Wormhole

Ironically, the second episode deals with the increasing expansion of the universe. The Universe dedicated a whole episode to it too. That's been scientifically proven, so if the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, I don't think it can be infinite at the same time.




Let me pose a counter-thought to that. Currently the belief is that there are over 400 billion stars in only OUR galaxy. And 400 Billion more galaxies out there. So, 400 billion * 400 billion is a number I can't wrap my head around... but the odds of earth-like systems developing are pretty good in my opinion, in that context. (The LOWEST numbers I've seen are 200 Billion * 200 Billion, I'm not sure it even matters, really...)

Presently we only have the technology to discover hot Jupiter sized planets, and dense planets around 2.5-5x the size of Earth is just now becoming the reality. We're even starting to realize that the Goldilocks zone isn't a universal constant... it changes depending on the type of star and planet in question. Over 560 planets have been located despite these limitations, and more are found every year. We've found a large number of solar systems with a number of planets in them too, showing it's not a rare thing.

So, lets try another thought experiment to blow everyone's minds: 400 Billion Galaxies * 400 Billion Suns * average number of planets per sun * average number of moons per system.

My point is, it's not just planets that can sustain life. Water exists in a solid, liquid, and gas forms naturally on this planet. Saturn's moon Titan was proven to have Methane that exists as a solid, a liquid, and a gas. Titan actually has methane lakes, methane rain, snow, and ice as active weather patterns. It's atmospheric density is the closest approximation to ours in our solar system, in fact it is 4.5x more dense than Earth's at sea level. And this is possible because of Saturn's heating of the moon, not because of some Goldilocks zone.

So regardless of how infinitesimally small the chance of all the factors coming together perfectly might be, the end number from the above equation is just so large that I think the true scope of earth-like life out in the universe is truly huge. And that's not even considering non earth-like life!

I'm going to watch these series of Morgan Freeman. That's very interesting.

 

[marfig]

For anyone interested in life on other planets, the odds of such from a scientific perspective, the best book ever written about the subject was from the Russian scientist I. S. Shklovskii in the middle 60s. Despite some of the cosmological discussions being now understandably outdated, the whole chapters dedicated to trying to establish a framework from which one can calculate the odds of there existing life in other planets in reach of our civilization (and out of reach too) are considered still today the one Treatise with capital 'T' on the matter.

Shklovskii was a communicator at heart, so fortunately the book (which is a dense exposition of 500 pages) is easy to read and meant to the layman. To help things further, none other than Carl Sagan edited and co-authored it. So the book reads like a charm.

It's unfortunately out of print and a somewhat hard book to find. I do have it since I bought it back in the 90s. To learn a bit more about it, visit its amazon page. To try and find it, close to you, go to Wikipedia's book find.

To wrap it up though,

Shklovskii argues with a lot of merit and convincing argumentation that it's not enough -- at all! -- to consider the number of astral bodies in the universe. One needs to factor in Time and civilizational factors. He produces many formulas and explores the results, feeding them with possible numbers according to knowledge at the time. Much like with any other prediction model (weather, earthquakes, etc), his formulas can be understood as the basis for estimating the Probability of Life on Other Planets.

...

As a quicky, the biggest most "damaging" factor to the existence of life on other planets is the Time factor. Cosmological time isn't very friendly towards our mundane concerns. The rise of the Himalayas went as an unnoticed soundless blip in cosmological time. Hundreds, thousands, millions of civilizations may have evolved from amoeba, thrived, conquered neighboring planets to their sun and disappeared forever in a supernova, before even our planet Earth was formed. We may all have disappeared from the pages of history for billions of years before a new civilization rises in any of the visible stars in our night sky.

This brings us to the second problem. The rise and death of a civilization is necessarily tied to its nature and culture. Are all civilizations bound to extinguish themselves through ineptness, carelessness, bad luck? Are most, only a few? How diligent is intelligent life indeed? Can a superior civilization survive a supernova? A red giant? Can they evolve their technology in time to travel to the unknown in time to survive? And is there a landing place in the unknown? What if they didn't find any? How long could they have survived in a soon to be derelict spacecraft? And how many civilizations were lost to climate change? To wars?

Lastly, the very nature of... Nature. On earth itself, new life has often flowered only to be immediately consumed. Species there were that never had a change to evolve much beyond simple organisms. Others were unceremoniously served to cold embrace of extinction just when they were best adapted to their environment. If the earth can be an unforgiving place and humankind a pure stroke of luck, we haven't even touched nature as it shows itself outside the cozy bosom of our mother planet. Stars can destroy an entire solar system in seconds, taking with them also anything beyond. A 3 Km wide asteroid (a distance you don't even break a sweat on your bicycle) can eradicate all life on a planet. A planet itself may be in a self-destruct course. An orbit that traverses another planet orbit may be all it takes when they both collide in some 100 billion years. What if life had begun there 3.7 billion years before and the planets are bound to clash just when their local Genghis Khan is taking his breakfast before attacking Samarkand? What a waste...

The book discusses these aspects in a lot of detail and uses formulas to try and establish a prediction model. On some cases, the numbers are depressingly small, as little as 1 (that us). Other times they are cheerfully large and hope exists that we are not alone.

 

[Kougar]

It's faith it's not something we see with the eye. Did it ever occur to you we only see maybe a few percent what's out there? The rest we don't see like television and radio waves for example.

I believe and hope there's more then just being here as a coincidence. One thing is for sure I think - that there's more to life then we know. And more then human mind can possibly comprehend.

I can agree with everything you've said here. True faith requires no proof, no evidence, it is truly blind faith.

That is what most preach, and required to be a Christian, at least in some interpretations of the Bible at least. Watching and following many in the church made me believe otherwise though, they make God out to be someone you interact with daily, and that dichotomy grew to be troublesome for me. It doesn't align with the blind faith mentioned is required in some books of the Bible.

I should've mentioned it earlier but I do believe that Jesus was real and walked on the earth. And I do strongly believe in many of his direct teachings to his disciples. I feel that those serve as a good moral guide to live by.

---

Marfig, I'm not sure I've heard of Shklovskii but you've managed to intrigue me... looks like a few copies of the book are floating around for $20 on Amazon and Half Price Books. I'll definitely take a look at it. But my point was just as a broad, overarching view, the tiniest number (say whatever probable odds he arrived at) multiplied by the result of my first equation is still going to be a pretty large number. My point being, the odds of us humans being the only sentient species in the universe might as well be zero.

All of those points you mentioned are very big ones, but they don't change that we aren't the only species sitting on a ball that's swinging around the universe. Maybe I'm biased because I loved Star Trek so much when growing up with it, but I've always agreed with Gene Roddenberry's views on it. Perhaps best summarized by the Vulcan IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. I feel there are more possibilities than my ethnocentric views can come up with or imagine!


Jumping back into religion now... Every time I hear someone use faith to claim humans are the only evolved species in the universe, I'm just appalled. And reminded of of the 1500-1800s, when people believed the universe orbited around the earth. It's a very egotistical, arrogant, maybe presumptuous line of thinking, isn't it? Or at least I'm growing to feel that way.

I'm also strongly reminded of Galileo, the father of modern astronomy and also contributed a great deal to modern science. In the 1600's, The Catholic Church tried, convicted him of heresy, and forced him to spend the rest of his life under house arrest. At least he got off lucky compared to many others over the 1,000 years prior...

But I also remember the stories from the 1950's, of the Catholic Church preaching against contraceptives to all the women during the baby boom years... The Catholic Church doctrine still claims it is a "mortal sin" to use any of them today.

 

[eunoia]

I'm more intrigued by Shklovskii's memoir: Five Billion Vodka Bottles to the Moon: Tales of a Soviet Scientist.

Oh also,
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/525347

 

[Rob Williams]

There's not much I can contribute here, but like GFreeman, I've also been interested in the universe ever since I was little. I don't read up on it all too often, or even watch television programmes on it (though that History Channel show does intrigue me), but every so often I'll get a bug and spend hours doing research online. It's a subject, that like the universe itself, has no end to what can be learned about it.

A couple of years ago, I saw an image that helped put the size of the universe into perspective, and because I didn't want to lose it, I saved it. I am not sure the source, but here it is:

http://deathspawner.net//etcetera/forums/size_of_the_universe.jpg

My mind still gets blown when I look at it.

 

[Kougar]

I've seen that photo before, although I definitely do NOT remember most of those suns! VY Canis Majoris... such a size is mind-boggling. I thought that was the point where a sun couldn't sustain itself, heh. I wonder if THAT size a star is large enough to fuse iron...

 

[Psi*]

I don't like to be "pegged" as a non-believer OR a believer. I grew up in a very christan life. I am a engineer/scientist and have solved allllll of the world's problems & mysteries of the universe with my peers (students, engineers to english & philosophy majors). As a result (& leaving a multitude of details out) I do not belive in a supreme being. But, am I allowed to feel an order to the chaos? AKA mathematics & the similaty of galaxies & atoms or molecules to over simplify.

*If* you feel that a deity is required to bring that order, then if that deity is unique then I suppose then that there could be other dieties in charge of their own universe ...

Personally I think there is but 1 universe and it is inifinite. The big bang, was nothing more than a localized event and there may well be other big bangs occuring in their own locales. Those locales being far more vast & distant than humans have sensible scales for or means to verify much less observe. Therefore the laws of physics as we now know are valid with modification as discovery and science offers.