High end audio from PC sources...

[2Tired2Tango]

Hoping this is a conversation starter...

Over a number of years of messing with PC audio, trying to get decent sound from CD and MP3 playback, looking for really dazzling midi performance, I've often noticed the speakers are the real weakness in the chain. Most sound cards do a pretty decent job on wav, mp3 and avi sound sources. Although Midi performance varies wildly this is mostly due to crappy "sample" sets as sound sources (I still think the SoundBlaster 5880 chip does the best job, but that's pretty much personal preference).

The weakness... the crappy little speakers, is easily overcome if you have the budget.

Analog PC sound is basically line level audio which most people don't realize is fully compatible with the AUX inputs on their stereo or home theatre setups. The newer connectivity (glass fibres etc.) are also deliberately compatible with home theatre sound.

Connecting your sound card to your stereo is relatively easy, involving only an adaptor and an extension cord... both readily available at Radio Shack (The Source). If you have a decent sound system, try connecting in your sound card on the auxiliary inputs...

You will need:
http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Prod...nline&category=Cable+Adapters&product=4202481
To connect to your stereo.

http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Prod...=Audio+Plugs+&+Jacks+Adapters&product=2740879
At the computer, to split between stereo and regular PC speakers

http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Prod...ategory=Headphone+Accessories&product=4208460
if it's not long enough....


For many years I used a "mini bookshelf" stereo on my computer desk with highly satisfying results... Until it decided to take up smoking and then resigned.

The problem with PC speakers (and a lot of home theatre ones) is paper and plastic... cheap speakers with paper bellows housed in plastic boxes... even at 1 or 2 watts, getting rid of these two problems will bring about a significant improvement in sound quality. Try the stereo hookup... you might just be surprised how good PC sound can be if you avoid those chintzy little speakers....

Given the capabilities of even cheap soundcards, I've never really understood why PC audio is not a high priority... it almost seems like manufacturers are hiding it.

 

[Rob Williams]

As it stands now, I live in a crap apartment, but once I find myself in more space, a good stereo setup is something I'm definitely going to go after, so it's nice to know that it's so easy to have it function with a PC. Does this rule here apply just for modest systems, or could you hook up higher-end home speakers as well (two large speakers and one killer amp)? Since I've never had the desire to try non-PC speakers on the PC, I haven't looked too hard into it.

I think a lot of things should be taken into consideration when contemplating a good setup... not just the speakers. I think the audio card is easily one of the most important pieces (I still love my ASUS Xonar). Too many people take the quickest route and just pick up a Creative card, when others out there are more inclined to deliver better audio, like the Xonar for example. I think a good setup deserves a good audio card. The same goes for headphones as well (I'm still meaning to get a hold of the Essence XTC), although I believe there, non-PC setups are probably going to deliver the richest audio, but I could be wrong.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

As it stands now, I live in a crap apartment, but once I find myself in more space, a good stereo setup is something I'm definitely going to go after, so it's nice to know that it's so easy to have it function with a PC. Does this rule here apply just for modest systems, or could you hook up higher-end home speakers as well (two large speakers and one killer amp)? Since I've never had the desire to try non-PC speakers on the PC, I haven't looked too hard into it.

It's true most everywhere. Any audio gear with auxiliary inputs (for a tuner, cd player, etc. but not a turntable (that's different)) can be connected to at least the front left and right channels of your sound card. Home theatre amps get them all...

Killer amp? How's this...
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/IC-150AownersManual.pdf
feeding one of these...
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/DC300-spec-sheet.pdf
connected to a pair of these...
http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/cornwall-iii.aspx
In a club that specializes in dance-trance.

Earbleed, legacy and WOW!

Or more recently...
http://www.teac.com/consumer_electronics/receivers_&_tuners/ag-790a/
with these speakers
http://www.bose.ca/controller?url=/shop_online/speakers/stereo_speakers/901_speakers/index.jsp
sitting in a friend's livingroom.

I think a lot of things should be taken into consideration when contemplating a good setup... not just the speakers.

I know the computer techs out there (and I am one of those too) are going to scream bloody murder over this but you know what... it's 90% speakers, 10% electronics.

Hook a really good set of speakers up to a mediocre amp and you will often find out it's not the amp at all... The other way around... Hook a really crappy pair of speakers up to a perfectly good amp and it's going to sound like garbage -- hense my objection to plastic enclosures... they may be trendy but they sound exactly like plastic enclosures.

Hint: Crank it up, put your finger tips on the sides and back of the speaker enclosure... If you feel vibration, it is coloring the sound.

I think the audio card is easily one of the most important pieces (I still love my ASUS Xonar).

As my mentors used to say... Pick your electronics on features, pick your speakers by listening. Truth is most sound cards at 16 bit or better give you CD quality sound. There really isn't a big difference *in sound quality* between my $15.00 SBPCI-64 card and the $1200 Turtle beach card when you're listening to CDs or MP3s... Yes there is a big difference in formats, positional audio, etc... but the actual racket in the room is all just about perfectly reproduced, even with the cheapest of cards. (If there are big sound differences, look to drivers, not the electronics)

Typical specs, even for the cheapest, run to 90db SN+N, .01% distortion, 1% phase shift and 90db+ dynamic range, plus or minus 2DB 10hz -- 20khz... that's actually better than CD quality sound.

I use the PCI-64 (a 16 bit stereo card) in preference to the HD audio on my motherboard... why? MIDI rendering. I know Midis are so 1990s, but when you hear them played properly with a good sample set (as opposed to that crappy Microsoft GS Synth) you'll be absolutely amazed what they can do... In fact most modern music is now produced on MIDI keyboards... the "Studio orchestra" is almost a thing of the past.

Chosen on features, not sound.

Too many people take the quickest route and just pick up a Creative card, when others out there are more inclined to deliver better audio, like the Xonar for example.

Guilty as charged...

It's all about features... and I need MIDI that sounds right... IMO only Creative does it right.

I think a good setup deserves a good audio card.

There are advantages to high end sound cards, of course... but is the extra worth the big bux?

Something to consider... Most people can't hear octavic phase shift (i.e. treble out of phase with bass) but they can hear interchannel phase shift (one of the speakers hooked up wrong). Most of us can't hear less than 5% distortion. Most of us can't hear intermodulation distortion at all. Only a very few can hear infrasonics (frequencies under 50hz). Most can't hear dips or swells in frequency response less than 5db. Truth is almost every soundcard out there sounds perfect to everything except test equipment.

The same goes for headphones as well

Absolutely... even more critical than speakers! The audio source is right there, next to your ear, if you're going to hear bad perfomance that'll do it.

(I'm still meaning to get a hold of the Essence XTC), although I believe there, non-PC setups are probably going to deliver the richest audio, but I could be wrong.

Tell you what ... listen to both, pick the ones you like... Nothing says you have to stick to PC stuff... Home audio heaphones will work with your soundcard, all you need is a 1/4" to 1/8" plug adaptor.

 

[Rob Williams]

Hah, those speakers look great, but I can't comment too much on the amps. That TEAC looks fantastic though. Not sure about the Bose speakers. They'd definitely do the job, but the styling doesn't do much for me. I'd probably go with a lesser-known brand whenever I get a well-built setup... I try to stray from names that everyone wants in their living room (for whatever reason).

Hint: Crank it up, put your finger tips on the sides and back of the speaker enclosure... If you feel vibration, it is coloring the sound.

Hmm, that's interesting. So essentially, the front should vibrate obviously, but you shouldn't feel much of anything anywhere else? How hardcore of a vibration do you mean? Something more than just a tingle I imagine?

As for the audio card thing... I can agree to that. I still think there is great value in quality components though, and for the most part, the software can also make a nice difference as well. The Xonar software isn't perfect, but it offers enough to get great sound regardless of what style of music you're listening to. I don't get much into equalizers or anything like that, but the Dolby Headphone is one feature in particular I've come to love (it's essentially a sound booster, offers richer sound for headphone users).

Midi... can you maybe give me an example of how and where it's used in today's music, or is anything from a synth considered midi?

Tell you what ... listen to both, pick the ones you like... Nothing says you have to stick to PC stuff... Home audio heaphones will work with your soundcard, all you need is a 1/4" to 1/8" plug adaptor.

Well what I meant was that listening to music with a dedicated audio player and your headphones plugged into an amp might give better audio performance, but I could be wrong. My headphones (Ultrasone PRO 750) don't really require that much power to drive the drivers, so maybe an amp wouldn't help much at all. I really can't complain about audio too much though, since I'm using all this through Linux, which already has downsides to Windows (can't use Dolby Headphone, of course).

Thanks for all the insights... really learned a lot there.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

Hah, those speakers look great, but I can't comment too much on the amps. That TEAC looks fantastic though. Not sure about the Bose speakers. They'd definitely do the job, but the styling doesn't do much for me. I'd probably go with a lesser-known brand whenever I get a well-built setup... I try to stray from names that everyone wants in their living room (for whatever reason).

Check out Cerwin Vega and Klipsch... their commercial and home audio stuff is top line, pro audio quality all the way. (But their PC stuff is, well, like other PC stuff...)

Hmm, that's interesting. So essentially, the front should vibrate obviously, but you shouldn't feel much of anything anywhere else? How hardcore of a vibration do you mean? Something more than just a tingle I imagine?

Ideally 0 vibration anywhere but the speaker cones themselves. Of course that's impossible to achieve in anything less than a cast enclosure (the Centrios-7s are cast aluminum) so yeah a tiny tingle at maximum levels is acceptable. The problem with plastic and cheap particle board is that it's flexible and can thus be energized by the back side of the speakers. The vibration will be distorted and it will color the sound you hear.

A real quick test is the "flick test"... grab a speaker (any speaker) and flick the sides and back of it with your fingernail (or tap it with the big end of a bic pen)... does it sound hollow? Then don't buy it.

As for the audio card thing... I can agree to that. I still think there is great value in quality components though, and for the most part, the software can also make a nice difference as well.

Absolutely. Quality always counts. But beyond a certain point you're getting into the world of diminishing returns. For example: I seriously doubt a $200 soundcard is twice better than a $100.00 sound card... One thing to do is look at the chipsets on the cards themselves... Several cards actually use Creative or RealTech chipsets, but neglect to mention that. If you've got a $300.00 soundcard using the same chipset as the $130.00 creative card, you might as well save yourself $170.00.

The Xonar software isn't perfect, but it offers enough to get great sound regardless of what style of music you're listening to. I don't get much into equalizers or anything like that, but the Dolby Headphone is one feature in particular I've come to love (it's essentially a sound booster, offers richer sound for headphone users).

Want a nice trick... find a copy of Media Player Classic (Home Cinema edition) and look at the built in decoders... there is a feature check for "decode to dolby stereo" and it works... I'm not absolutely certain but I believe there is a Linux port of it as well.

Midi... can you maybe give me an example of how and where it's used in today's music, or is anything from a synth considered midi?

MIDI is a communications protocal ... the full skinny is at
http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MIDI/~jglatt/

Essentially MIDI devices communicate by passing note information, not waveforms, back and forth, kinda like the old player pianos did with holes in the paper rolls.

Each midi channel can play one instrument. There are 128 instrument sounds such as guitar, organ, drums etc. defined in the General Midi Specification.

Midi events (messages) are passed on each channel to tell it what note to play, how loudly to play it, and for now long. Each channel can usually process 16 separate messages at a time... so you can play chords, 5ths and 7ths in the instrument sound assigned to that channel.

The only place you actually transfer audio waveforms is to the speakers.

This is a very efficient protocal since a 10 minute song can usually be packed into a 50k (yes, Kilo not Mega) byte file. A midi file is actually a stream capture of up to 16 midi channels, timed to replay the note information (event) stream in real time, reconstructing the music as it goes.

The hitch is that the instrument sounds themselves are predefined in the synth and thus the quality --realism-- of the performance is totally dependent upon the quality of these pre-defined sounds. The actual sound of each instrument is not specified in the MIDI spec and is thus open to interpretation by each manufacturer... For example the "Lead Guitar" on a Korg synth sounds totally different than the one on the Yamaha, which is again different on the Creative synth...

If you look in the windows sound applet, you will find a spot at the bottom where you can select a synthesizer to play midi files through. Usually you will find something like "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth"... this is the data base of predefined sounds that get pushed out to your speaker on demand. Sadly Microsoft did a truly horrible job defining the instrument sounds (quelle surprise) and pretty much destroyed the MIDI protocal in the process... The only sound cards I know of with built in synths are the Creative and some Turtle Beach ones... and in my opinion Creative wins.

Properly done MIDI reproduction can rival a live performance. But of course it's purely an intstrumental medium, no voice, so it's primarily a studio tool, using synth keyboards to replace almost all of the non-performer stuff in a great many recordings... For example a 4 man band needs a 5th to fill out the bass line... they will play the line on a synth, then mix it into their piece in post production... I mean you don't really think Miley Sirus has a 30 piece ensemble, do you?

Well what I meant was that listening to music with a dedicated audio player and your headphones plugged into an amp might give better audio performance, but I could be wrong.

Actually many sound cards have better sampling rates and overall specs than dedicated players... But yes, working with a headphone amp (and there are some real good ones out there) will bring some solid improvement...

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/accessories/headroom-bithead.html

My headphones (Ultrasone PRO 750) don't really require that much power to drive the drivers, so maybe an amp wouldn't help much at all. I really can't complain about audio too much though, since I'm using all this through Linux, which already has downsides to Windows (can't use Dolby Headphone, of course).

Sadly, Linux still has a way to go on audio and video playback...

Thanks for all the insights... really learned a lot there.

My pleasure.