2.0/2.1 pc speakers

[cwculbertson]

hello - i'm clearly a novice at this and need some "sound" advice. i recently purchased an hp pavilion slimline pc and have ordered a creative sound blaster x-fi titanium fatal1ty pro series sound card for it. i'm now in the market for good high fidelity desktop speakers. i'm not into gaming - primarily have it for music applications. my wife's a bit nervous about some of my accessory purchases so i'm trying to keep this in the $100 - $175 range. i've done some research and seem to be leaning toward the creative labs t40s, however the boston acoustics mm226 and cambridge soundworks microworks II have some reasonable reviews as well. i realize the t40s don't have a sub-woofer, but i listen to a wide range of music - bluegrass, acoustic, blues, some rock - mostly guitarist - zappa, richard thompson etc., and classical. thanks.
- cwculbertson

 

[Anonymous Bosch]

If you listen to anything that involves drums you'll be much happier with a sub at that pricerange.

 

[Rob Williams]

Welcome to the forums, both of you

I agree with Bosch... a sub would be a great addition for drums, but with that music selection, it might not matter too much. I'm also not sure what I can recommend, but I'll see if I can get our resident audiophile in here to recommend something.

 

[Anonymous Bosch]

Thanks for the welcome...

Come to think of it if I had that soundcard and about $150-$175 to blow on speakers I'd pick up a cheaper set of 2.1 speakers (maybe Logitech's Z-2300) and get a set of Grado SR-60 headphones for critical listening, they run about $60-$70 and they sound great without an amp.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

my wife's a bit nervous about some of my accessory purchases so i'm trying to keep this in the $100 - $175 range.

Hi. I recently purchased a relatively cheap set of 2.1 speakers; the Logitec X-240s. Got them on sale for $50.00 and they're not bad. If you have a little tech skill one thing you might want to expriment with is replacing the desktop speakers on some of these inexpensive setups.

With the X-240s, I experimentally replaced the satellite speakers with a set of small bookshelf speakers from The Source (Radio Shack, in the States) and the results were pretty impressive. Most often the electronics are fine, giving pretty good performance for the price. It's the el-cheapo speakers and plastic cases that kill the sound quality.

What I'm suggesting is that a 2.1 system with the electronics in the Sub gives you the chance to improve the satellite speakers, giving yourself a much better sound system for a lower price. So you may want to spend a bit on the 2.1 systems with an eye to upgrading the little plastic desktop speakers to bookshelf units when money permits....

 

[b1lk1]

Instead of doing that I would suggest looking for a bargain 5.1 home theater speaker setup on Ebay. I just got a some for $85 that came with a 120W 10" sub that pounds pretty hard (especially for the money). I would personally avoid PC speaker systems all together if possible. For the budget listed there are far better options out there. Look on Kijiji or Craigs list and I guarantee you'll find a decent amplfier/subwoofer w/amp and a couple speakers for $150 that would completely humble any comparatively priced PC speakers. I have owned many "high end" PC speakers and I can tell you they all major limitations that cannot be overcome by just swapping satellites.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

I have owned many "high end" PC speakers and I can tell you they all major limitations that cannot be overcome by just swapping satellites.

Ordinarily I would agree with you.

In past attempts at this, swapping out the speakers had mostly left me wondering why I bothered. However, the X-240s have some pretty interesting electronics in them... TDA series amplifier chips which, although cheap as rice, are well known for stability and performance... 12 watts on 16 volts, less than a percent distortion just below clipping and frequency response way beyond audio ranges.

What seems to have happened here is that someone designed a really nice electronic package that just happens to be very cheap to produce. They stuck it in the X-240s and then hid it behind crappy speakers.

I replaced the sats with these:
http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Prod...&category=Book+Shelf+Speakers&product=4012000

These are the original "Minimus 7" speakers that although slightly deficient in bass response managed to define an entire class of high end "mini-stereos". The design is 30+ years old and well known for crystal clear mids and brilliant highs... Everything the logitech sats lacked.

In the X-240 sub they've used a relatively decent 4" woofer (100 watt rating), again powered by a TDA series amplifier chip that is strapped for 22 watts and eqipped with "soft clipping" that compresses when overdriven. Not a powerhouse but certainly enough to make up for the low end of the Centrios-7 speakers.

The result is just short of spectacular.... The quality easily rivals my home stereo on all but one count... raw power. But I don't need 100db sound, my neighbors would rebel.

And yes I know this is an exception to the rule where PC sound systems are concerned.

I've been consistently disappointed with PC audio since day 1... Two words... "Paper" and "Plastic.".... cheap drivers with paper bellows housed in plastic enclosures... to me they sound like someone with a clothes pin on their nose. Always have... and there's no reason for it beyond trying to keep prices artificially low.

This setup is not perfect but it is a giant step in the right direction... at least they're not using those scratchy little 9 volt LM series chips anymore.

FWIW... you haven't lived until you hear a good sound card hooked up to an Amcron DC300a and a pair of Klipsh Theatre speakers... now THAT's an experience!

 

[b1lk1]

I do not doubt you have gotten the results you desire. I am not saying it is futile to replace satellites. What I am mostly getting at is that the amplifier and mostly the pre-amp circuits on any PC based speaker system is just not up to the same level of quality as dedicated home audio equipment. If one is not looking for audiophile level sound then there is no need to spend much money since you can get good solid sound by doing what you have done.

BUT

If you have a budget of ~$200, you can most definitely put together something rather good as long as you are willing to do some research and also the legwork to find it used. As I said, the entire 5.1 sound system I found this week cost me $85CAD. 4-5 months ago I picked up a budget 7.1 receiver for ~$100. This is including all costs to get this stuff to my house. This was stuff I found on Ebay. Again, this is not audiohile level equipment, but it is quite capable of 100db+ and is fully digital capable including a built in Dolby DDL and DTS decoder.

I am not trying to start a pissing contest, but there are no Logitech systems that have the specs to come close to what I have built for a reasonable budget. To boot I even have 5.1 capabilities.

I've owned some serious mid-range $4K+ systems myself so I do understand quality. I personally believe the Klipsch Ultra 5.1 and the Creative S750 (Creative soundworks) speaker systems are the only 2 to ever come close to home audio quality in a PC based speaker system.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

I do not doubt you have gotten the results you desire.

I did...and, as I said earler, even I was surprised.

Edit:
One thing you should note is that most PC speakers in the mid to upper range actually use the same audio amplifer hybrid chips that are used in Home Theatre systems... The TDA1559 is very common as is the LM1875. Most pre-amp sections (when used) are built around op-amps these days with the TL081, TL082, TL084s being the most common. These are very inexpensive electronic components which are known for excellent performance and their behavior in PC speakers not significantly different than in a home theatre system.

I am not trying to start a pissing contest

Heaven forbid... neither am I

Just trying to give the OP some ideas to consider...

 

[Rob Williams]

2Tired: So if I understand this right, you purchased the X-240 just for the woofer? Just trying to make sure I'm following along here. I have the same set, but rarely use them (I'm a headphone's user). I can agree on the sound quality... it's not too good. The woofer is quite good though, even though I have to use low bass most of the time due to other people in the house (who can pretty-much hear anything).

b1lk1: I still think 5.1 is overrated, unless you are watching movies and/or concert DVDs/Blu-rays. For music, I don't think anything is going to beat a solid 2.1 set, with two powerful satellites. Of course, I don't use speakers to begin with, so maybe I'm not one to talk.

Just trying to give the OP some ideas to consider...

... who it seems we scared away, haha.

 

[b1lk1]

Rob, I agree that 5.1s are somewhat overrated but don't forget there are many games that properly support 5.1.

One thing I completely disagree on is that the Logitech X-240 sub is anything more than a toy. You can easily buy a powered 10" 100W sub on Ebay/Kijiji for under $75 that would decimate the X-240 sub. Also, when using a soundcard and the analog outputs, you are bypassing most the audio processing circuits on the X-240's control pod. For casual listening a bargain set of PC speakers is Ok, but there is no way I can agree that they even remotely rival a low end home audio setup. The X-240 outputs 15W to the sub and 5W to each satellite. (I should quickly add that I am a MAJOR Logitech fanboy too.) The SNR is 96% according to their site but we all know that is quite optimistic. Even the most basic stereo receiver built in the last couple of years will have far better internals and specs.

I have had a set of Logitech Z4's. They are a much higher quality than the X-240's and I was impressed with their sound all things considered. Then I got the Z680's. Even if I only run 2 front speakers and the sub, the difference is out of this world. No comparison. By simple adding some automotive 1" tweeters to the Logitech satellites I also found a major increase in sound quality.

Audio comparisons are not an exact science. There is no definitive answer. Every ear has a different taste and a different expectation. There is no one person that can accurately tell another person what is the best. My whole point (again) is that for $150, I could easily build a speaker system that would blow most anyone's mind. Upgrading your satellites definitely gave you better sound, but that is just no comparison to the sound you could have had if you just spend the right money the first time instead of upgrading a low budget system.

 

[Anonymous Bosch]

Trying to put together a decent 2.1 PC setup is such a royal PITA that now I remember why I switched to headphones. I guess cobbling together a mix of HT satellites and a low-end subwoofer/amp would yield acceptable results for around $150, but for the same money I can get a nice set of 'phones and save some real-estate on my desktop.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

2Tired: So if I understand this right, you purchased the X-240 just for the woofer?

Actually no. I picked up the x-240s to replace a really good sound system that gave up the ghost on me. It had been dying for a while and I was getting tired of reparing it. The x-240s were on sale for 1/2 price so I grabbed them thinking they'd be OK till I had money to put into a homebrew amplifier I was designing.

I immediately discovered they sounded pretty good for the price (always a qualifier) but lacked any high end.

Still having the speakers from the other setup, I tried connecting them and to my surprise the overall sound quality was pretty good... They lack power; I'll never get an ear bleed from them but when used within that limitation the sound quality is surprisingly good.

From there I decided to open up the sub woofer (where the electronics are) and take a look... To my surprise I found a really well made electronics package using chips I'd used in some very successful homebrew projects in the past...

The TDA series chips are really good little amplifiers. Add a power supply, a heatsink and a small handful of resistors and capacitors and you get "high fi" quality results for next to no money. I can build a 40 watt (rms) stereo amp for under $30.00 using these chips.

I then wired everything up properly and continued experimenting to get the phasing right (easily done by flipping wires) and adjusting the sub woofer's level control for best sound balance as I listened to my favorite music.

Now --much to my own surprise-- I find myself with a pretty good setup that keeps me happy on all counts except raw power... and I really can't use much power, living in an apartment and all. The sub is 22 watts the sats are 10 each... more than enough power for any apartment dweller who's not looking to break their lease.

Just trying to make sure I'm following along here. I have the same set, but rarely use them (I'm a headphone's user). I can agree on the sound quality... it's not too good. The woofer is quite good though, even though I have to use low bass most of the time due to other people in the house (who can pretty-much hear anything).

If you have a pair of decent bookshelf speakers... give them a try.

The only thing special is that you have to break the phasing rule and run them out of phase... This is an eccentricity of the amplifier itself. TDA series chips are all designed to be bridged so the outputs are out of phase when running single ended. By connecting the speakers wrong you are actually correcting for the amplifier.

(And I do find myself wondering how many people have tried this only to be disappointed when they hooked the speakers both up the same way and got bad low-midrange sound... which, come to think of it, might be one of the problems with the Logitech sats. I probably should crack them open and investigate.)

Again... let me stress that I don't think I've hit audiophile heaven here... but for under $200 (if you're buying everything brand new) its a pretty decent setup.

 

[2Tired2Tango]

You can easily buy a powered 10" 100W sub on Ebay/Kijiji for under $75 that would decimate the X-240 sub.

Yep, you can... but then you need amplifiers and speakers for the rest of it... you are not ahead of the game. Sub woofers do one thing... they fill in the bottom end, mostly infrasonics, between about 10hz and 100hz... the human ear is mostly deaf at those frequencies, you FEEL the sound more than hear it. Anything that moves a lot of air can do a good job in the low end. A 110w subwoofer will be *louder*, but not necessarily better than a 20w one.

Also, when using a soundcard and the analog outputs, you are bypassing most the audio processing circuits on the X-240's control pod.

There is no audio processing in the control pod... It's a standby switch and a volume control, nothing else. (And yes, I've seen inside it)

For casual listening a bargain set of PC speakers is Ok, but there is no way I can agree that they even remotely rival a low end home audio setup.

Even though they use the same electronics as the x-240?

The X-240 outputs 15W to the sub and 5W to each satellite.

Actually it's 20watts on the sub and 10w on each satellite... I measured it.

The SNR is 96% according to their site but we all know that is quite optimistic.

While I agree their S/N ratio is rather optomistic, it's 96 decibels not 96 percent.

Decibel scales are logarithmic not linear... every 3 db represents a 2:1 power ratio...
96 DB represents well over a 100,000 to 1 power ratio.

Even the most basic stereo receiver built in the last couple of years will have far better internals and specs.

Even though the share the same electronics?

Really... I'm not joking about this... TDA series audio ICs are positively everywhere.... The x-240s use the same audio chips as many Sony, JVC, Pioneer and Kenwood mini-stereos.

Upgrading your satellites definitely gave you better sound, but that is just no comparison to the sound you could have had if you just spend the right money the first time instead of upgrading a low budget system.

Hokay... I can see where this is going.... For a certainty I'm not going to apologize to you for how I spend my money.

Sorry to have bothered you.

 

[Rob Williams]

Bill: Oh, I agree. 5.1 is great for games and the like. I tend to discredit those half of the time for whatever reason. Probably since I never really game on my main PC, but rather just listen to music. I still would prefer 2.1 for audio, except for concert DVDs and the like as I mentioned. I have a NIN Blu-ray concert here that's never got the right attention...

Trying to put together a decent 2.1 PC setup is such a royal PITA that now I remember why I switched to headphones.

I'm with you. I highly prefer headphones over speakers any day. Just love the "in-your-head" music. Much more personal than speakers in my opinion.

I immediately discovered they sounded pretty good for the price (always a qualifier) but lacked any high end.

I agree... but for the price I think they are pretty good. If you paid half-price, then you really got a steal. I use mine very, very sporadically, but when I do, I don't have a huge problem with them. I lack space anyway as I mentioned before, and both the sattelites are behind my monitor, so I'd lose fidelity regardless of what speakers I was using.

Now --much to my own surprise-- I find myself with a pretty good setup that keeps me happy on all counts except raw power... and I really can't use much power, living in an apartment and all. The sub is 22 watts the sats are 10 each... more than enough power for any apartment dweller who's not looking to break their lease.

Hah, so we are in the same situation. It's sad, but whenever I picture buying a house, it's huge speakers that I picture in my mind. Of course, that being the case, I might want to also be the only one living on my road...

I'd comment more on the debate of low-cost setups vs. the X-240 sub... I'm clueless there. I do know one thing, the X-240 is dirt cheap and includes two speakers, and dirt cheap amps off of eBay is still going to cost almost twice as much, just for the amp.

Sorry to have bothered you.

You didn't bother anyone... it's just a little debate. We all have our opinions. You two, like most audiophiles, just don't agree on everything. I'm willing to side with you both. I don't discredit the X-240, because I have one, but I'm the type of person who doesn't mind spending a little more for higher-quality audio (plus I hate tweaking... give me a setup that I don't have to think about and I'll be pleased).

 

[2Tired2Tango]

Hah, so we are in the same situation. It's sad, but whenever I picture buying a house, it's huge speakers that I picture in my mind. Of course, that being the case, I might want to also be the only one living on my road...

If you're going the "big speaker" route, look into floor speakers with at least 12 inch woofers and a 100watt/channel stereo receiver... Hook in the computer for your music source, like I detailed in the other thread... It'll be pricey but it will be entirely worth it.

Think Bose 901 or Cerwin Vega VE12 speakers with a Kenwood or Pioneer receiver... you won't regret it, and you'll still be using it 20 years from now.

Especially get away from anything plastic... I just can't stress this enough, plastic is the wrong stuff for speaker enclosures... wood is good.

I'd comment more on the debate of low-cost setups vs. the X-240 sub... I'm clueless there. I do know one thing, the X-240 is dirt cheap and includes two speakers, and dirt cheap amps off of eBay is still going to cost almost twice as much, just for the amp.

The thing is that buried in those x-240s is a pretty good amplifier package. The sub ain't bad... but with good quality bookshelf speakers for sats the whole thing comes to life. As I recommended the Centrios-7 is an excellent small speaker to use for high quality sats.

I don't discredit the X-240, because I have one, but I'm the type of person who doesn't mind spending a little more for higher-quality audio (plus I hate tweaking... give me a setup that I don't have to think about and I'll be pleased).

Ahhh... see for me it's all about the tweaking... I used to build my own speakers, amplifiers and even tuners, to get exactly what I wanted... Homebrew is a great way to go if you take your time and do it right.