Gas Prices

[maddmaxx]

Hey everyone.What are you paying for a gallon of gas? Where are you located, generally speaking. Country, State, whatever. No street addresses please. Just curious. I am in Atlanta, Ga. USA and It's $2.89 USD a gallon as of this afternoon.:(

[werty316]

Not sure how that would convert to Canada since we don't use gallons but where I live it was $0.95CAD and then it went up to $1.05CAD and now its $1.09CAD. These prices are just crazy.

[Jakal]

Doing better than I am Max. 3.05 here in High Springs, Florida. Took me $60.50 to fill up my car.

[Rob Williams]

I don't drive, but it's around $3.60 - $3.80 here a gallon.. so around $3.20US.

[DarkSynergy]

Yeah, Indiana isn't to far behind. I saw it anywhere from $3.09 to $2.89 down the street from me.

Booooooooooooooooo!

[leecho7]

$3.28 for premium in Baltimore MD. I spend about $35 to fill my car up.

[sbrehm72255]

I think it's like $2.80 out around here the last time I was out and about. But it's been a little while, it could have gone up.

[T-Shirt]

I think it's like $2.80 out around here the last time I was out and about. But it's been a little while, it could have gone up.
Better prepare your self for sticker (pump) shock , Steve.
For the last month I've been driving my parents prius (50+ mpg) while they were on vacation (I should get something for taking the to and from the airport at rush hour) so I've been ignoring the actual prices at the gas station.
the same pump I filled up on the day they left at $2.49 hit $3.11 today almost 70 cents per gallon more then last year at this time:eek: And summer driving isn't here yet (supposed to go on a long motorhome trip this summer, but maybe we'll only go camping in the lower pasture.)

[Buck-O]

$3.02 for mid grade here in Washington State, +/- 10¢ for the lower and higher grade gas.

The old Maxima sucks it dry.
Given that my fiance is on disability, and we have very limited income, it is definately becoming a stretch to fill the tank. So attempting to live outside the house, and take any long trips is become a maybe once a week thing. And now we count every trip we take, and assess its relavence before we do it.

Personally im wating untill middle of 2007 when the new Low Sulfer Diesel hits the street, and some new Diesel auto options come down the pipeline. I think thats where the real benefit will be. I personally dont buy into the marketing hype of hybrids.

[Lothar]

On my way into work this morning, I saw $2.80 in Bloomington, MN. It was at $2.95 mid last week after a sharp spike, but has slowly dropped. I expect another spike in a couple of days. Seems to shoot up about $0.30 and then slowly drop about $0.20 before spiking again... :mad:

[BLuKnight]

I'm at about 2.70 here in Utah. I remember when gas was 89 cents per gallon. *sniff* Those were the good 'ol days.

[Buck-O]

I'm at about 2.70 here in Utah. I remember when gas was 89 cents per gallon. *sniff* Those were the good 'ol days.

The good old days...that was only 6-7 yars ago!!!:eek:

[DarkSynergy]

Thank god for a company gas card. :D

[SillySider03]

Edited.

[DarkSynergy]

You have my every condolence there Bro. I am sure the strain is on you, as it is most everyone. The trade off is that I put the miles on my car so the spending is justified. However, I can certainly understand your frustration.

[Tech-Daddy]

2.99 to 3.09 here in Dallas....

ugh....

[Rob Williams]

I tell you. I am not upset that I don't drive.

[Jakal]

Prices went up today to $3.10 for the cheap stuff. Summer's coming up and they'll rise even more.

[DarkSynergy]

See, that’s bull shit. Prices, if anything, should come down with the announcement that the Federal Reserves are not being built up. Bush suspended the deposit of oil into our reserves which should lower prices. Something bad happens and prices go up immediately but when something like this happens, it takes a while to come down.

Bull shit.....

[Jakal]

One thing about it, once we tap the federal reserve, that's just more oil we'll have to replace later on. It's hard enough to keep people in supply, let alone the reserve. The government really needs to take a look at where this is going and put a stop to it. Gas prices in Venezuela are less than 20c a gallon. It's rediculous what we're having to pay.

[Ben]

How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?


That right their sums up the situation with the oil companies...

[Buck-O]

That right their sums up the situation with the oil companies...

Absolutely.

The biggest reason why no one wants to really take ont eh oil companies, is the same reason no one in government really wanted to take on teh big tabacco companies.

Its an issue of letting to many things run unchecked, for their own perspnal benefit, that when they do become a reall issue, theres nothing you can do about it, but sit back and pretend like you never saw it coming. And make excuses, and pass the buck to the other guy about why its happening now.

That is an issue which crosses all party lines, all religious groups, all races, and sexes. Though im sure every liberal left of center will automaticly blame Bush for being a part of big oil. But honestly, i think hes gotten jsut as fed up with this whole deal as anyone else. Just the same as anyone in his possision would. And i doubt anyone else in his possision would have done any differnt to prevent it from happening, or turn the tides. WHo knows, maybe being a former oil guy will help him to correct some of the issue.

Either way, the biggest issue right now, is to many people pointing both ways at once.

WE NEED MORE OIL! - But we dont have the capasity to store it becuase we havent allowed for more on-shore oil holding facilities, becuase of rediculas environmental laws.

WE NEED MORE REFINERIES! - But we passed legislation putting zoning restrictions on refinery building that are so rediculas, there is literally no more room to put any.

WE WANT CLEANER BURNING FUELS! - So we force teh petrol refineries to modify for MTBE, becuase its safer for the environment, but its actually worse for the environment, becuase we're idiots and wont admit it, so actually we need to switch back to ethenol, but that costs even more moeny which the consumer gets to pay for....but, really, its for the environment, so more expence is ok, even though we want cheaper, and more of it.


Its a rediculas game of political hog wash, mixed with market control, coupled with downright greedy bastards.

I think teh one thing that need to be stated about the Oil situation more then anything, is that we as consumer have no say, and no voice in the price of the fuel. For some reason, people seem to think that we do. And the truth is, we dont.
Take OPEC for instance...the C in OPEC, stands for CARTEL. Meaning, they control teh market, they control the demand, they control the price. And we have to live with it.

When your dealing with the Oil Cartel as a whole, there is nothing the consumers of the world, or governments of the world, can do to prevent it. (unless of course your country provides safe harbour for criminals, terrorists, and illeagle drug trade to fund large militias, then your gas is 20¢ a gallon)

[T-Shirt]

. Prices, if anything, should come down with the announcement that the Federal Reserves are not being built up. Bush suspended the deposit of oil into our reserves which should lower prices. ..
They did, futures dropped 8 cents a gallon for June delivery, however that only means that it won't go up quite as much by June, Unless something bad happens (like war in the middle east.. oops! got that, or rising tensions with Iran, Sudan, or Venezuela.... uh oh! or a predicted severe hurricane season......Oh Crap!)
The problem with Bush's new plan is it's too little too late.
He fought and killed raising CAFE (fuel efficiency standards )
he resisted alternate fuels legislation (increasing alcohol content in gas.
gave the oil companies BIG tax incentive for future exploration and drilling
He avoided earlier attempts to investigate the oil companies
and continues to agitate the oil producing countries
Stopping the filling of the strategic reserve give a minor price relief (if any, if we see it)at a time when we should have it filled (we might need it soon:( )
Had the CAFE standards remained in effect the overall fleet(all vehicles in the US) efficiency would have risen 1+MPG by now (doesn't sound like much but is 4-5%, ie maybe 15+ cents a gallon less at current prices, maybe alot more given the difference between a oil glut and a shortage is only 5-10% historically )
not requiring the replacement of MBTE with alcohol might avoid a few days of spot shortages, but harms both the environment, and possibly the health of many more people, and in addition adding 10-15% alcohol would actually increase the volume of fuel available.
Now he wants to take away the tax free status of oil/natural gas production previously given to stimulate exploration and drilling during the last Oil crisis.
and now he wants to investigate big oil, well into the second or third year of record prices and profits.
The very things he pushed so hard in the early part of his first term have come back to haunt (and hurt) us all.
If price would only drop as fast as his popularity........
political rant off, whats done is done.
neither the president nor congress can change the current price/supply problem in the short term.

BUT you can
tune your car, keep the tires inflated, avoid extra trips, carpool or take the bus when possible, plan your trips to do everything at once, drive conservatively, etc'etc
If every vehicle in the US saved/used 1 less gallon per week (not that hard if you really try)
thats 200,000,000 'extra' gallons available per week. in just a few weeks the shortage becomes a glut, storage tanks are full and the price begins to drop and as long as people don't return to full usage (say we keep saving 1/2 a gallon each = 100,000,000 gal. total) the price keeps going down. people who rant about the price of gas, national security, the war on terror, the economy, the debt, the trade deficit, etc, should stop and think about this all of those are tied to this simple action.

[fussnfeathers]

1 gallon per week per car is unrealistic. Sure, if you live in a major metropolitan area, and live 2-3 miles from work, but those of us in outlying and rural areas might need to drive 30+ miles to our jobs. Even with the current breed of hybrid cars, that translates to 4-5 gallons a week, at 50mpg. And with the current craze of owning the biggest SUV in the world, with an average MPG of less than 15mpg at best, this will never happen.

Personally, I detest people who go out and buy an Expedition or some such, when they're a single person, and don't bother to try to carpool. Screw you, swallow your ego and buy a fuel-efficient car. However, you can't say that to a family that has four kids and needs a large car, or a construction worker who needs a biggish truck to haul his tools, or school systems who need buses to get the kids to school.

(on the school note, it really irritates me to be behind a school bus that stops literally every 100 feet to pick up kids. When I was growing up, we walked a half-mile or so, at least a few blocks, to a central pick-up location. Stop-and-start driving uses ALOT more gas, and in a school bus, that's multiplied in spades)

You're right, though. The US has absolutely NO control over the cost of oil, since it is all imported from outside sources. We pay what the seller asks, and, unfortunately, we're aggravating the very sources of the oil we need......so we pay higher costs.

Fortunately, I got a job closer to home, so in the event of a shortage or price hike, I can take the bus, carpool, or even ride my bike to work...........which really isn't an option, I have two herniated disks in my back, but I'll do it if I have to.

I should note, unlike probably many of the members here, I went through the gas shortage in the 70's. Keep your head, plan your trips wisely, cut your driving time down as much as possible. While it might seem like a pain, shopping for food once a week takes far less gas than shopping a few times a week, or more, just in the few miles that you have to go out of your way. And, in the long run, you get home earlier and relax more, more days per week. It benefits you mentally and physically, as well as financially.

[T-Shirt]

1 gallon per week per car is unrealistic. Sure, if you live in a major metropolitan area, and live 2-3 miles from work, but those of us in outlying and rural areas might need to drive 30+ miles to our jobs. Even with the current breed of hybrid cars, that translates to 4-5 gallons a week, at 50mpg. And with the current craze of owning the biggest SUV in the world, with an average MPG of less than 15mpg at best, this will never happen.

.
I'm not saying you only get 1 gallon of fuel, I'm saying SAVE 1 gallon of fuel (on average , some people can save more) the longer your comute and the lower your MPG the easier it is.
i.e. 30miles x 2(round trip) x 5 days a week = 300 miles
if you only get 12 MPG then if by tuneup or careful driving/planning you can cut out 12 miles (stop at store on the way home, to avoid an extra trip, maybe meet some one part way to work and ride together 1 day a week for the last 15 miles,etc) you have saved your gallon, the hybrid owner getting 50mpg with a 3 mile comute will not be able to avoid 50 miles to save their gallon, but they already are using much less.
The bus thing doesn't bother me, it's not safe for kids to walk/wait alone in many areas. the problem is the people who race up behind the bus, let it get ahead, and then race up again.
Adjusting your trip 5 minutes either way avoids being stuck behind the bus everyday. and then there are the "soccer moms, who race to school in the big SUV, then idle in line for 10-15 minutes almost everyday to take 1-2 kids to other activities, when a small car would do, or they could turn off the engine for even a few minutes (makes a big difference in those mega gas burners)
None of this will be easy or fun, but it is what we must do to break the control of the oil co.
and think about the BILLIONS of dollars we send to the middle east (and elsewhere) each year, to people/governments we oterwise (apparently) do not trust.
Before Bush's gunboat diplomacy efforts much of that money returned to the united states for the purchase of goods and services, startup small businesses, and for collage tution and housing (many times spending generously for 6-7 years to get a 4 year degree.)
Now arabs do not feel as safe or welcome here, and while they still want our high quality eductions, they push to finish in 3 years.
Dubai is setting up branch campus's of major US universities and even china is taking more of their students.
The shine has also worn off many US products, with more of their business/purchases going to europe, russia and china.
so now our hugh oil budget is going out to support other countries.
in the mean time our trade defict grows to incredible amounts, while our product prices(to outside buyers) are reduced in order to compete.

[Buck-O]

The shine has also worn off many US products, with more of their business/purchases going to europe, russia and china.
so now our hugh oil budget is going out to support other countries.
in the mean time our trade defict grows to incredible amounts, while our product prices(to outside buyers) are reduced in order to compete.

Yeah, no thanks to NAFTA, and everyones favorite friend Billy C. for that one.

[Rob Williams]

You could be forgiven for not expecting the next John D. Rockefeller to come from Tullahoma, Tenn., of all places. But right in Tullahoma, in his garage-turned-factory, you can find Bill Sasher — the father of do-it-yourself ethanol.

Doing it yourself means buying one of Sasher's stills or still-building kits. A fully assembled ethanol kit still costs about $1,400, and Sasher, who runs Dogwood Energy, says with the price of gasoline nudging toward $3 a gallon, business is booming. In the last two months, orders are up 300 percent.

Basically, you would add your home-made ethanol to your regular gasoline.. a 15/85 mixture. So.. in affect this should save you 15% at the pump. But this kit sells for $1,400 and requires time and effort. I am not sure what would be better to be honest, but this is a very cool alternative.

Oh, and you can make moonshine with the kit also :D

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Business/story?id=1902339&page=1

[T-Shirt]

Basically, you would add your home-made ethanol to your regular gasoline.. a 15/85 mixture. So.. in affect this should save you 15% at the pump. But this kit sells for $1,400 and requires time and effort. I am not sure what would be better to be honest, but this is a very cool alternative.

Oh, and you can make moonshine with the kit also :D

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Business/story?id=1902339&page=1
the problem being, like home bio-diesel kits, when too many people start doing it the raw material gets hard to find (waste fry oil for bio-diesel, any cheap sugar source for ethanol) and the price begins to rise.
At least for ethanol the money you pay for supplies goes to some US (or Canadian) farmer.
here in Washington the bio-diesel industry got a big push from the state last year, with a few side effects.
1) the port of Seattle arranged to have ships in Puget sound burn bio-diesel in their while in port (ships are 1 of the biggest pollution sources as they burn huge amounts of bunker oil (very dirty, almost crude oil) you can actually see their exhaust plumes on satellite photos) and pledged to use more than 1 million gallons a year. However this dried up the local sources of waste oil as a few big contractor will actually pay (a small amount) to get the oil to refine and sell to the port, too bad for the little guy (and there have been a few complaints about the "fried food" smell around/downwind from the port)

2) In order to encourage the use of BD in construction vehicles, the laws about cleanup of small fuel spills (very common from dump trucks and heavy equipment fueling at job sites) are very relaxed for users of BD, but this just means that some companies with bad cleanup records/safety practices switched and are now not even pretending to be careful (a BD spill MIGHT be less dangerous then regular diesel, but it is still oil)

3)A company in eastern Washington setup a HUGE BD refinery which the state is now trying to shutdown because the owner (a real scumbag) decide that it was legit to dump the lye/waste water? and waste oil (the part too full of little burnt food bits) in to a big dry well which is now polluting the local ground water.

There already are several large ethanol plants in eastern Washington (which use the sugar beets grown there).
BUT there have already been several massive tank car fires on the railroad in several areas of the state. (alcohol being MORE volatile than gas or oil, and only transported on the surface rather than (some what )safer underground pipelines.

[Bobbythecat]

Much of America now is built with the assumption that fuel was abundant, and that people can commute. Of course, it's The gas company, Standard Oil, and the auto industry, early 20th century, that got most cities to say bye bye to trains. Now some have subways, but only a few remain from that time, like the one in San Francisco. Much public spending went into building and maintaining roads, and "city" planning (by "city" I refer to suburb development) where people are away from various nuisances and protected by servitudes and zoning to keep nuisances away. Many people, by necessity, use a lot of fuel. Ultimately, it's bad strategic planning. The Oil Shock of the 70's got former Pres. Carter to attempt at preparing for problems as "necessary" fuel use, but nothing as grand as improving city planning.
However, gas prices increasing is a great thing in my mind. This planet is heading south as we bicker over prices. Industry and economy may be at stake, but they are also based on what may be characterized as the worship of economic growth and consumption. Cancer is a growth of cells without end that ultimately kills the collective. The economy growing was a great thing while resources were abundant and the world seemed boundless. But the planet could take so much shit from us. And we cannot exploit it at the rate we are. The fisheries once rich with life, many now barren, are accompanied by its own economic impact on its own scale, for example. Much has been done to harm our collective long-term interest. There are too many people, too much investment into unsustainable economy, and the haves and have-nots of the world fuel the train ceaselessly until they wreck. We face the wreck of time.
Not enough said, but this will have to do.
Gas is 3.17 per gallon for regular stuff at the pricy station, 3.10 at others here in Sacramento, CA.

[Buck-O]

the problem being, like home bio-diesel kits, when too many people start doing it the raw material gets hard to find (waste fry oil for bio-diesel, any cheap sugar source for ethanol) and the price begins to rise.
At least for ethanol the money you pay for supplies goes to some US (or Canadian) farmer.
here in Washington the bio-diesel industry got a big push from the state last year, with a few side effects.
1) the port of Seattle arranged to have ships in Puget sound burn bio-diesel in their while in port (ships are 1 of the biggest pollution sources as they burn huge amounts of bunker oil (very dirty, almost crude oil) you can actually see their exhaust plumes on satellite photos) and pledged to use more than 1 million gallons a year. However this dried up the local sources of waste oil as a few big contractor will actually pay (a small amount) to get the oil to refine and sell to the port, too bad for the little guy (and there have been a few complaints about the "fried food" smell around/downwind from the port)

2) In order to encourage the use of BD in construction vehicles, the laws about cleanup of small fuel spills (very common from dump trucks and heavy equipment fueling at job sites) are very relaxed for users of BD, but this just means that some companies with bad cleanup records/safety practices switched and are now not even pretending to be careful (a BD spill MIGHT be less dangerous then regular diesel, but it is still oil)

3)A company in eastern Washington setup a HUGE BD refinery which the state is now trying to shutdown because the owner (a real scumbag) decide that it was legit to dump the lye/waste water? and waste oil (the part too full of little burnt food bits) in to a big dry well which is now polluting the local ground water.

There already are several large ethanol plants in eastern Washington (which use the sugar beets grown there).
BUT there have already been several massive tank car fires on the railroad in several areas of the state. (alcohol being MORE volatile than gas or oil, and only transported on the surface rather than (some what )safer underground pipelines.

Yes, the push for BD in this state is preaty rediculas. I still honestly belive in Diesel 100%, i find it to be a far better alternative then regular gasoline, and far better overall then hybrids for initial cost, and cost over time.

But, even though containter ships do have higher polution ratings then other singular vehicles, the truth is, it can move more tonnage, for fuel spent, then any other vehicle on earth. No semi, train, or aitcraft, can math its efficiency per ton ratio. The amount of exausr fumes doesnt prove the whole story. As hybrids have to easily proven.

The fuel cleanup law is complete garbage. And i belive there is a measure to get it ammended. However, its difficult, as alot of the repete offenders are major uninion contractors. ANd the Union funds alot of the representatives in this state, obviously, as we are majority democrat here. And as such, no one really wants to put any sort of real push on making the change to the law.


And it should be noted, even though its no better, but for accuracys sake, that the waste oil material that was being dumped, was mostly dirty glycerin. Not dirty oil. They are quite different substances. Though, as i said, just as dirty in terms of environmental impact.

[T-Shirt]

And it should be noted, even though its no better, but for accuracys sake, that the waste oil material that was being dumped, was mostly dirty glycerin. Not dirty oil. They are quite different substances. Though, as i said, just as dirty in terms of environmental impact.


My point was that deliberate dumping of waste product, was not the purpose of a well intention, but incomplete (in hindsight) law that saw the cost of small spills was hampering businesses and that vegetable oil is probably less dangerous then regular diesel in small amounts, and that promoting reuse was generally a good idea.
It's more a matter of each person taking resonsiblity for their burden on the enviroment, some will always find a way to abuse any law, for their own benifit, irregardless of the cost to others, that's why we end up with so many laws (and massive govt, to check and enforce them).
Also no doubt ships are a effiecent transport mode, but they do carry their own hazards (air pollution, contaminated bilge water,including the accidental importation of non-native/invasive marine (and land) life. The port was making a step in the right direction, but it did have an undesirable effect on the early adopters/do it yourself biodiesel groups in the area.
I'm just not sure investing in a DYI ethenol setup couldn't end up being equally efectted by the massive comerialization of that industry.
Also I'm not sure I want my neighbors being allowed to run makeshift stills or storeing large quanities of alcohol.

[leecho7]

I think we, as the consumers, are gonna get it rough in the upcoming years. Oil is a huge foundation in our societies. We have an infrastructure that took us about a century to develop. It's going to cost us a lot of time, effort, and money to make a transition from crude oil to an alternative fuel.

In the US, gas prices are going up but the demand hasn't decreased at all, in fact it's rising.

[Buck-O]

With all of the oil companies being forced to switch back over to ethonal, i would agree with you completely, that the DIY distilers will probibly, again, get the short end of the stick. Given that most of the ethonal crop load isnt there anymore.

Which kind of brings us to a nother problem of big government (though in a way we cant really complain about it, becuase we all asked for it to begin with), all of that ethonal crop that was removed from EMTB, was being subsidised, the sibsidies are still there, the crops are smaller, and the demand is higher. Its a total catch 22, and i dont think many farmers are going to want to go to the expence of reconfiguring their crops, with all the money they are getting through subsidy instead. Its really a big steaming pile all over.

[twolf]

the problem being, like home bio-diesel kits, when too many people start doing it the raw material gets hard to find (waste fry oil for bio-diesel, any cheap sugar source for ethanol) and the price begins to rise.
At least for ethanol the money you pay for supplies goes to some US (or Canadian) farmer.
here in Washington the bio-diesel industry got a big push from the state last year, with a few side effects.
1) the port of Seattle arranged to have ships in Puget sound burn bio-diesel in their while in port (ships are 1 of the biggest pollution sources as they burn huge amounts of bunker oil (very dirty, almost crude oil) you can actually see their exhaust plumes on satellite photos) and pledged to use more than 1 million gallons a year. However this dried up the local sources of waste oil as a few big contractor will actually pay (a small amount) to get the oil to refine and sell to the port, too bad for the little guy (and there have been a few complaints about the "fried food" smell around/downwind from the port)

2) In order to encourage the use of BD in construction vehicles, the laws about cleanup of small fuel spills (very common from dump trucks and heavy equipment fueling at job sites) are very relaxed for users of BD, but this just means that some companies with bad cleanup records/safety practices switched and are now not even pretending to be careful (a BD spill MIGHT be less dangerous then regular diesel, but it is still oil)

3)A company in eastern Washington setup a HUGE BD refinery which the state is now trying to shutdown because the owner (a real scumbag) decide that it was legit to dump the lye/waste water? and waste oil (the part too full of little burnt food bits) in to a big dry well which is now polluting the local ground water.

There already are several large ethanol plants in eastern Washington (which use the sugar beets grown there).
BUT there have already been several massive tank car fires on the railroad in several areas of the state. (alcohol being MORE volatile than gas or oil, and only transported on the surface rather than (some what )safer underground pipelines.


actually ethanol is less volitile than gasoline!! and 94 octane is less volitile than 87 octane this is why some cars must run high octane fuels because 87 octane can cause detonation (exploding before ingnition) in high performance motors,

however ethanol if not treated in pure form burns so clean you cannot see it!

1) there is alot of e85 stations poping up in the midwest and starting to spread!
2) the us makes almost all of the ethanol it uses!!
3) the only place that comes close to making as much ethanol as the us is brazil
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/statistics/

4) they can send ethanol through the pipelines but choose not to because ethanol is more corrosive and it would pick up any dirt in the pipes and ethanol can suck water up like crazy!! so before they use a pipline for ethanol they have to clean it very well

[T-Shirt]

It's getting worse.
Bolivia nationalizes it's Nat. Gas industry
you'd think, given the Bolivia is landlock and only can sell to it's neighbors, primarily Brazil, should mean shortage in Brazil no effect on the world energy market (everyone agrees the Bolivia no longer has the skills or resources to run and develop the gas reserves without the outside help, and the oil companies, despite investing more than $5Billion in the last 10 years will abandon it's investment rather that run it and turn over ALL the profits to the bolivian gov't)
however Brazil NEEDS the Nat. Gas to fend off the staggering inflation of the last 15-20 years, so they will by LPG deliveries (by ship) at whatever price the market demands.
so LPG (a large portion of industrial and home heating for the new england area, down the east coast middle america (via pipeline from the gulf of mexico)) and S califorina will rise or be unavailable (because all available LPG ships already are 100% booked), so demand for other fuel will rise, etc, etc


this will be a tough summer, gas wise and could be a MUCH tougher winter.
on the gasoline front the cheapest gas station around here Arco (which already adds 10-12% alcohol (almost free) to it's fuel (federal subide program, no longer available) at the cheapest station I know of has $3.21- $3.11-$3.01 posted tonight)
This areas gas is only produced from Alaska pipeline crude, which according to the orginal pipeline documents is only for sale in the US. (several groups have traced this during previous "shortages" and it is known that through "paper exchanges" (for other non US oil, which probably would be imported anyway) or for actually pumping it out into a land base tank and then back into a tanker, quite a bit of it ends up in the far east, when the price is right, sometimes to make the price rise))) :mad: :mad:
so this same oil that payed the alaska permanent fund generously and then was shipped to the west coast of the US refined and sold as gas for under $1 per gallon just a couple years ago AND still provided a decent profit for the retailer/wholesaler/ refiner/shipping/ pipeline drilling and production companies now fetches $3 plus at around the same cost.
Where do you think the other $2 per gallon goes?
not the retailer who usually only makes a few cents a gallon (most of the profit is in the minimarket) a local station just claimed the make more on the $0.99 corndog (57 cents profit) than filling an SUV )

but the refining shipping and production end all owned by the smae small group of MEGA-corps get all sorts of tax breaks to "help their struggling industry" and have/ will continue to post mind boggling record profits.
Your tax dollars, a pulic servents at work for your benifit, no doubt.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Enron is the tip of a very large iceberg

[Buck-O]

It's getting worse.
Bolivia nationalizes it's Nat. Gas industry
you'd think, given the Bolivia is landlock and only can sell to it's neighbors, primarily Brazil, should mean shortage in Brazil no effect on the world energy market (everyone agrees the Bolivia no longer has the skills or resources to run and develop the gas reserves without the outside help, and the oil companies, despite investing more than $5Billion in the last 10 years will abandon it's investment rather that run it and turn over ALL the profits to the bolivian gov't)
however Brazil NEEDS the Nat. Gas to fend off the staggering inflation of the last 15-20 years, so they will by LPG deliveries (by ship) at whatever price the market demands.
so LPG (a large portion of industrial and home heating for the new england area, down the east coast middle america (via pipeline from the gulf of mexico)) and S califorina will rise or be unavailable (because all available LPG ships already are 100% booked), so demand for other fuel will rise, etc, etc


this will be a tough summer, gas wise and could be a MUCH tougher winter.
on the gasoline front the cheapest gas station around here Arco (which already adds 10-12% alcohol (almost free) to it's fuel (federal subide program, no longer available) at the cheapest station I know of has $3.21- $3.11-$3.01 posted tonight)
This areas gas is only produced from Alaska pipeline crude, which according to the orginal pipeline documents is only for sale in the US. (several groups have traced this during previous "shortages" and it is known that through "paper exchanges" (for other non US oil, which probably would be imported anyway) or for actually pumping it out into a land base tank and then back into a tanker, quite a bit of it ends up in the far east, when the price is right, sometimes to make the price rise))) :mad: :mad:
so this same oil that payed the alaska permanent fund generously and then was shipped to the west coast of the US refined and sold as gas for under $1 per gallon just a couple years ago AND still provided a decent profit for the retailer/wholesaler/ refiner/shipping/ pipeline drilling and production companies now fetches $3 plus at around the same cost.
Where do you think the other $2 per gallon goes?
not the retailer who usually only makes a few cents a gallon (most of the profit is in the minimarket) a local station just claimed the make more on the $0.99 corndog (57 cents profit) than filling an SUV )

but the refining shipping and production end all owned by the smae small group of MEGA-corps get all sorts of tax breaks to "help their struggling industry" and have/ will continue to post mind boggling record profits.
Your tax dollars, a pulic servents at work for your benifit, no doubt.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Enron is the tip of a very large iceberg


Thats all fine and dandy.

But i have to come back to it again. The Oil industryis a CARTEL! And as long as its a Cartel, there is nothing anyone will do about it. And as long as their hands are deep into the pocket of every politician inthe world, they will continue to do nothing.

About the only country that makes no qualms about it is Dubai UAE. And frankly, im getting sick and tired of seeing them do 130mph downteh freeway in their sterling silver plated mercedes (and im not making that up either).

[Jakal]

2.99 a gallon this afternoon. 85 octane at Exxon. I'm thinking of getting a motorcycle.

[Bobbythecat]

Let's see, the price was of an old one the last time I posed, but the recent one says that regular gas is $3.37 a gallon. The high octane is $3.63 or something to that effect. Yay.

[madstork91]

3.79 in some places around here... 3.99 for the premium. I loath driving my vette these days.

[T-Shirt]

$3.199 this morning for regular, reportedly as low as $3.06 in some local areas (I'm not driving 20 miles out of my way to find out!)
What sucks is this is the best time to mow my fields so I've used $60+, so far still not done, and it would be better to do a second pass before it rains this weekend (or the new growth will be clumpy:( )

[sbrehm72255]

I have no clus as to what the prices are lately, I haven't been out in 2 weeks............;)

[T-Shirt]

then you are smarter then all of us steve
Hope you're feeling OK

[leecho7]

I just read that GM is stopping production of the H1 series of the civilian Hummer. That car had 10 miles to the gallon. Geeze, how can anyone drive that except for the extremely rich and/or stupid?

I've been walking a lot more to places. My grocery store is about a 15 minute walk from my place.

[Buck-O]

I just read that GM is stopping production of the H1 series of the civilian Hummer. That car had 10 miles to the gallon. Geeze, how can anyone drive that except for the extremely rich and/or stupid?

I've been walking a lot more to places. My grocery store is about a 15 minute walk from my place.

Yet they arent dropping production of the H2...even though it gets roughly the same gas milage.

The H1 simpyl wasnt marketable anymore. Becuase it was as large of a vehicle as it was, there was a predisposed notion that it was a gas guzzler. Kinda like, if you throw the word "hybrid" onto somthing, it means it get better gas milage, even its its less then a 5% savings, for twice the price. The gas issue was a nice marketing ploy. But, like i said, if that where the real case, they would have kicked the H2 as well, becuase it bairly get 15 MPG.

Horray for marketing and media spin. :rolleyes:

[T-Shirt]

Unfortunately marketing surveys show that the average american wants MORE power, instead of better gas mileage, even though most complain/are hurt by high gas prices.
the Hybrids can be built to be super effecient or to give a power boost without having to pay for/fuel a big engine.
My parents and my father in law both have prius's (2002 & 2005)
both are well built cars with plenty of power for the average user while getting -45-55 MPG. this year toyota has the camry (best selling car in the US for many years) hybrid for those a bigger somewhat more luxerous car that still gets an MPG in the high 30-40's vs mid to low 20's on the standard models.
I think this is the type hybrid that the avaerage US household will buy and use on a mass scale and could make a huge difference in fuel use/pollution/etc. (too bad US auto makers still haven't got the message, and are most going the MORE POWER route)
still if this technology is adapted to all vechile types and even if it only saves a few MPG on pickup.suvs and vans it's a big step in the right direction
How, how much and where you still has a big effect on fuel useage,

[Bobbythecat]

Of course, unless the entire economy decides to consume less resources, the gasoline problem would be the least of our concerns. Long-term economic planning, of course, is pointless because in the long-run, we're all dead. And the living then get to pick up the tab and figure things out for us. Hurray to our economic model. Keep up the good milage.

[leecho7]

Another thing that'll happen when we run out of oil is that we'll loose the ability to make plastics, asphalt, paint, and numerous amounts of other materials.
I remember talking to a Dutch guy not too long ago. He had an Opel diesel powered van. Opel is a car company in Europe, there is no Opel dealer in the US. So I was kinda suprised to see that car on US soil.
The car ran quietly, smoothly, and more environmentally friendly than our standard gasoline powered cars. He also said that he gets about 55mpg highway on that car.

But then again, 'I don't speak freaky deaky Dutch'. (Dr. Evil, from Austin Powers.)

[T-Shirt]

yes some of the european diesels get amazing fuel economy.
I suprised we haven't seen a diesel hybrid.
there used to be a lot of opels in the US but now GM (which owns opel) uses some of the designs in it US cars ,but doesn't import them under the Opel name anymore.

[Buck-O]

I dont think we are likely to see a Diesel Hybrid. As good of an idea as it may be.
And i doubt we will really see that much of an impact int he US when the new European Diesel standard hits in 2007 either.

And heres my reason for why.


The oil cartel is still a business. And as a business they have to move their major product in order to make money. That major product, is gasoline. Gasoline nets the largest profit margin of the petrol chemicles, becuase its refinment process is fairly advanced, the amount of waste production is minimal, and most importantly, your final product can be thinned to stretch it farther. And no, your not crazy if you think that sounds a bit like a distribution chain for cocain. But anyway...

They have to sell gasoline to see profits.


Now, Diesel on the other hand, though supplied buy the oil cartels as well, doesnt HAVE to come from them to be produced.
Becuase if you can produce oil, in any form, vegetable, Canola, Soybean, COconut, Corn, Olive, Whale, you name it, you can covert it into a combustable fuel, and distill it into Diesel. Completely circumventing the oil companies, and putting the production into the hand of private individuals, and dare i saw, the government itself. Slashing a huge portion of their profits right out from underneath them.

So its better for the oil companies to support "gas saving" technologies like Hybrid cars, becuase its better to loose less then one percent of your profit margin, and still sell your major product.

Then it is to support an alternative that could potentially take a very large chunk of your profits away.

Now you may be asking why does Diesel work in Europe then, where over 50% of the vehicles on the road are powered by Diesel? Well, its simple really. WIth the overly socialist thinking of the countries that make up the EUropean Union (read: money hungry tax states), they have regulated their oil producers. Guarenteeing the goverment gets a very large piece of the pie. And infact alot of the major European oil companies, are owned by European Union countries, Namely France (Total/Fina/Elf) and the Netherlands (Royal Dutch/Shell) [both of whom had major oil stakes in Iraq right after Gulf War I, and people wonder why they had a problem with the US going in there and giving it back to the Iraqi people, but thats another story, and a different political discussion]. Anyway, becuase the governments regulate the oil production, the diesel has to come from its producers, and therefor the profit margins are maintained. So diesel works in Europe, becuase there is no chance of Biodiesel ever really taking hold, as long as the various oil producing contries in the European Union have their say about it. Becuase then its just a couple of crazy brits, and a few farmers that get any benefit. Where as here in teh US, the free market, and do it yourself nature of Capitalism, guarentees you nothing, if not the fact that eventually somone else will come along and do it better.

My personal oppinion is that with hybrids being pushed as hard as they are, it only goes to prove that diesel is the better alternative for this country, and they want to try and make sure that the idea of Diesel being better, never gets a foot hold. Becuase if Diesel is found out to be the better option for the typical american citizen, and biodiesel take a major role in the distrobution of the US fuel market. They stand to loose alot of money. And when ExxonMobile is the largest, and most expensive stock out there, the share holders expect profits, and lots of them.

No matter how you choose to look at it the facts still remains... Most americans use the highway, and that means speeds at 60mph and above. I.e. the realm of which hybrid technology means, and does nothing. ANd where Diesels can easily get upwards of 50 MPG, all day long.


In a perfect world, we would all be driving Hydrogen powered cars. It can work for fuel cells for electricity, and for combustion engines as well. The ultimate single fuel, dual powered hybrid that actually truely works in an extremely economicle way.
Only problem is that producing hydrogen is either extremely harmful to the environment, or requires alot of electricity to produce. So its not exactly the best alternative fuel, though the ways in which it can be used, are seconed to none. But it very well could be a viable alternative, especially if nuclear power ever overcomes its smear campaign from environmentalist no-nothings in the 80's, that prevented it from becoming the main power source for the United States. ITs certaintly clean enough, and can produce enough excess electricity, to allow for the production of Hydrogen from water through electrolytic process, seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen. But, i think tis more pipe dream then reality...at least for this country.

Ok, thats plenty to chew on, so ill leave it at that for now.

[T-Shirt]

I agree change won't be instant, but it does HAVE TO happen.
My thought with the toyota type diesel hyrids is they seem perfectly matched electric motor to help with acceleration (where diesels suck) and high efficiency diesel running only at it's optimum speed or off throught a CVT transmission should be able to get some incredibly good MPG in small cars and scale up well to larger vehicles (pickups, vans and SUV's) could have a dramatic effect on overall consumption
Think if you take a small car that gets 30 mpg, and make a hybrid version that gets 45 as a percentage 50% improvment looks great
but a truck getting 12.5 raised to 15 is only 20% improvement
But if you look at gallons used/saved over a typical 15,000 mile annually the pickup makes a much bigger difference as far as total national consumption.
The less efficient the vehicle/home/process is currently ,the more impact improving it will have overall energy consumption.
National energy policy has to/should consider this when directing research and incentive dollars
It doesn't hurt to encourge the 20-30% of small car/already higher mileage to upgrade to super high MPG cars, but if you could get even 10% of the big low mileage users to even upgrade to a slightly better MPG vehicle it might be dollars better spent.

[madmat]

I'll give a cookie to whoever can tell me how many gallons of gas you get out of 1 barrel of crude oil.

If I've already told you the answer to this question, please don't answer.

[T-Shirt]

.

They have to sell gasoline to see profits.


I was listening to a national energy analyst on NPR talk about the why of predicted $4 a gallon gas for the west coast this summer, and the host had the same thought.
The analyst (I forget the name, but very famous, and usually right) pointed out that the money is now longer is in having the most supply, but in having barely enough, and driving up prices.
there is currently NO incentive for the long term planning for more production and refining within the US. while there is lots of incentive and NO immediate penalty for shorting the market, due lack of real competition and little/ineffective government control by the white house (could be fastest) the congress( for a longer solution) or the watchdog agencies (lack of pressure and direction from the first 2.)

[T-Shirt]

I don't know exactly, but different grades of crude probably yield different amounts of each by-product I guess somewhere around 50% on average so 42 gallons in a barrel maybe 20-22 gallons of gas.
maybe not that high, as alot of other things come out of crude

[madmat]

Think a much higher number

[Buck-O]

One barrel = 19.5 gallons of gasoline, 9 gallons of fuel oil, 4 gallons of jet fuel, and 11 gallons of other products, including lubricants, kerosene, asphalt, and petrochemical feedstocks to make plastics.

Ive seen the same statistical data pushed around on several other sites.

So, total FUEL out of 42 gallons of sweet crude comes out to 32 gallons.

[T-Shirt]

so I was pretty close on the amount of GAS (what MadMat asked), but didn't allow for fuel oil or jetA.
I am suprized that the Jet fuel is so low, and why it is seperated from kerosene (jet fuel is basically high grade, very clean kerosene)
and it make the fuel cost in Hawaii all the more suspect. (southeastasian crude goes to hawaii where it is refinied for JetA and boiler grade fuel oil as the primary uses, the excess gasoline is than shipped on to the US mainland, wholesaling below the price in Hawaii)
This leaves Hawaii with always having the highest gas prices in the US currently $3.60 and up.

[madmat]

I used to live in a refinery town and we were literally surrounded bu refineries on 3 sides and a deep water channel on the fourth. I was talking to a refinery hand one day when he asked me the question I posed here the other day and I was given a much different answer. According to the hand, during the refining process the oil begins to thin and expand and you end up with more than what you started with. His claim was 567 gallons of gasoling to one barrel of crude.

This is in addition to the other products such as kerosine, diesel and jet fuel that are pulled off at other levels.

I dunno if he was full of crap or not. It would make sense that if they were pulling more out of a barrel of crude than a .90 to 1 ratio (which is roughly what the oil industry claims) that they would not advertise the fact but without first hand knowledge I'm not going to judge either way.

BTW kerosine, diesel and jet fuel are all very closely related. Diesel is the lowest grade of the kerosine family, it has more impurities and is considerably oilier than kerosine and jet fuel is very high grade kerosine. I worked in an aircraft refinishing shop and we had kerosine space heaters for keeping us and the freshly painted planes warm and we ran jet fuel routinely in them as it was cheaper to aquire (and easier, this was at an airport) than kerosine and didn't produce as many ninoxious fumes as running diesel in the heaters would.

[madstork91]

SOmething im sure contributes to the cost however is labor and chemicals added to the gasoline. I guess im happy not to have smog, but if not having it means paying 2x as much for a gallon... also R&D for the gas. I know they can set the prices they want... and it sux, but theres not much i can do as an individual.

(It has also been brought to my attention that there are much mroe efficient way to process crude oil into gas but since the building of new oil refineries is lobbied against constantly in congress we havent had a new one built since the late 70's.)

[bjsonic]

i come from germany and was just wondering how prices are in the u.s. today and found this forum via google. in germany gas prices raised for about 25% during this year and it's discussed to be getting an economic slowdown already. we're having prices of 1,47 € these days - for 1 litre (3,8 litres are approx. 1 gallon). so our prices here are about 4,80 USD per gallon in comparism.

we also have diesel engines, they're quite common because diesel gas (is it also called diesel in the us?) is a bit cheaper and it costs about 3,90 per gallon.

prices are continously rising for about 12 years now, it's also about the period gas doubled it price. for how long are you experiencing the rising of gas prices in the us historically?

cheers
bj